Tarot History Forum

SteveM wrote:
In the earliest extent rules of the game the term "Tarot" relates specifically to the seven cards XXI, 0, I and the four Kings.

I & XXI represent the 21 generations from God to Abraham;

Four Kings represent the 56 from Abraham to Jesus.

0 Mat - the 'trunk' or 'mast' of the tree or 'tarocch'.

To signify a relationship between the structure of the tarot and the geneological tree does not I think necessitate a one to one relationship between 78 individual cards and the 78 individual members of each generation.

SteveM (sorry - drifted OT - probably needs to be split into another thread)

The trumps, including the Fool, are called triomphes. The XXI is called le Monde (the World - the subject of this card); the Fool is called le Math (from Italian Matto) ; and trump I is called le Bagat (from Italian Bagatto). These three cards, together with the four Kings, are called Tarots.

From the earliest extent set of rules for French Jeu des Tarots (1637),
Dummett, M. The Game of Tarot p.19

Salut Monsiuer Yves Les Marseilles !
Nice to meet you also Steve !
After a hard work week now I can say "Friday,ThanksGod it s Friday ! "
I lighted a Cohiba and now filingl a glass with a Wyborowa Vodka,and for that and for be here again I m simply tres joyeux mon good bon ami...
My wife must wait till Monday until she barely attempt to "touch" the computer.
As I said a hard work head storm week but ça ira,surely...
I also found a site that may be you could find it useful ( http://www.wordreference.com ) /And may be you knew it.

-Well I m returning to "work" here,surely i was lacked of words (as usual btw) with regard to the red stripe of LE MAT.
Here I attached the section of this stripe I mentioned that I see closest related with Dodal (Do you know a link with high resolution of the deck ? ) /So not seen at Noblet or Conver ( I haven t coloured version of J.P. Payen,J. Payen,Heri or others to compare.

-With regard to the meaning of Mât I also attached a translation from my French-Spanish dictionary from 1949 (I believe very much in etymolgy because language is a river as showed Steve M as if one follows the little streams one can find the origin of the culture of the people of a nation /excuse my of,of,of please gentlemen here ...)
So you as a frenchman surely correct me if I m wrong when I m trying to link MÂt with stick or "palo" with the walking stick of our LE MAT (BTW I think Mr. JMD that must be a thread or worth it ,about the link between LE MAT and XIII )
Same red stick,same diagonal,XIII ending on a blade,both allways going to the same side...

-As I said to JMD a great chance to seek image card signs to attempt to place Chosson deck,without any help than ours eyes,intuition,historical facts of course,and ours tired Soul (Which allways wait in silence until we remember she or "Notre Dame".

-Steve...
Amazing your post as ever.May be I m not agree with you about Christ tree connection,but you "Catch the Rhythm" as Boris Midney said...

-Yves,I like much to know your opinion about Dodal LA PANCES,I mean about the translation so about the meaning.
Could you ? /You re a Frenchman bon ami...

-I t s curiously at least here and at Aeclectic how very few frenchmen are involved with these dear Tarot de Marseilles...
Reminds to me the same about Tango...
Once I was at a pub here in Buenos Aires with my wife,tasting slowly some Guinness (as a Malbec /Argentine of course the best ...) with another couple of germans and the dialogue went very "dry" you understand me ? / and then the music changed (I hate music at the pub,I pray for a pub like an abbey..) and the DJ play Piazzolla "Libertango" and the Germans became absolutely crazy !. They encouraged (or ordered ) to me and Claudia (my wife) to find 2 a.m. . ours Towers Record.
Well we all went there,the Germans bought about 60 CD s..
The point is here people don t be too close to Tango.they are too much with Mariah Carey ( A beautiful women btw...) (Just for a friday,not ? )

-Well I think I went off the topic,but on a deep sense not I think...(Mr. James,don t be so "cool" / Cameo )

Replay to me my good comrades,/I will replay as ever
Here is somewhat heavy warm,so I don t like it,but one must carry himself body or body...

Friendly as ever ...

Eugim

Salute Eugim,

Vodka and cigarillos will surely lead you to...inspiration no doubt: A nice Electronic Week End in perspective.

About La Pances:
JMD and others made a thread about this item on ATF. And Jean Claude Flornoy too on his web site talks about this.
I simply add that:
La Pances is close to La Pance in french who means belly or paunch in Anatomy.
In Numerology curiously number 2 is connected for Anatomy to... paunch/belly area of body.
And La Papesse/La Pances in Dodal is 2nd Major Arcana and is numbered II on it.

About red stripe on Le Mat face:

I weel noted thanks to you last picture that you are not talking about red stripe on his forehead/brow but rather red stripe on his cheek area close to his barb.
But I still persist in my affirmation that many decks have this red strip on same location.

This is why I have now collected about 50 Historical decks and this wide panel permit me to have a better comparative scope.
I knows that from Argentina it is hard to reach various European Museums who host this old decks but I works about possibility to shows this collection on a Web site.

Be patient mi amigo. 8-)

Yves los Marseillo

Eugim, you are totally right in being critical of my previous (and frequent) comment about the usage of the additive form of Roman numerals - I have all too often overstated the point, and at times gone over into inaccuracy as a result.

In early form of Roman numerals, only the additive form was used, and it was certainly the case that, in commonly using Roman numerals, lots of numbers could be put together and then simplified - for example, five and two and fourteen may at times be written as:

VIIXIIII

and then 'group' simplified and arranged in a standard form to:

VIXV -> IXX -> XXI

This does not mean that, to be precise and in acknowledgement of your rightful criticism of my previous post, the subtractive was not in usage by the time of tarot. As you point out, IX for nine was already in use (the Vieville, for example, uses the subtractive for 'XIX'), as was, for that matter, some instances of a double subtraction (as another example, IXL for thirty-nine).

Generally, however, this was not common and popular - and the general use was still of addition, and so 'IIX' would as easily be read as 'one and one and ten' - ie, twelve.

We can of course make wonderful significance of this, but frankly do not think that - as number - it marks anything that unusual at the time and, specifically, in the context.

For a similar 'strange' numeration, look at the numbering on the Noblet six Coupes, for example:

Wow. Thanks for the Six of Cups "point" jmd .. I'd never even noticed the numerals did that!! (Must have been distracted by the Queen of Batons top!! )


RaH

Hello Yves...
-Well and for this Saturday I will taste Smirnoff Vodka (English version) that surely ours anglo friends here know it.
As a frenchman are you more close to Armagnac or to Wine ? /Here we ave one of the best Malbec.
I m been thinking to return to smoke my olds good pipes fiiled with the best Latakia ...
I read that at the south of France people drink Absinthe (At Arles where Van Gogh lived).

-Well as you have 50 decks you owe to us an article here about these topic,so about the link between this ending red strape as seen on Dodal and Chosson,because this could help us to place Chosson deck related to the others.
So you have too much work for this weekend mon bon ami... (I know you can do it by far ).
I said that also both have XII as IIX as also Jean Pierre Payen (from which a I have black and white version)
Again I ask to you if you know a site that have Dodal high quality images.
-About LE PANCES I knew Aeclectic thread and also Monsieur Flornoy argument.
So she is pregnant.From whom ? // L EMPEREVR ?.LE PAPE ?,LE BATELEVR,LE MAT ?
I think the "father" is LE MAT,and she is pregnant of wisdom.See how he go away form the sequence cards...
He hasn t any number so any place,but he has a name so he exists.
One number something or someone related to others ,so to place him ( "All in this universe has number,weight and measure" ).

-Steve: Your post is spining in my head till now,and I think has too much firewod to sustain the topic thread...
Do you think that could be also a connection with the 22 chapters of the Apocalypse of St. John ?

-JMD:Thank s for your honesty...
I think that the reversal topic as we discussed many times isn t a minor subject.
I mean if you accept that IIX is an 8 so not a XII,that has a tremendous consequence because (and keep in mind us as card players ) our good friend LE PENDV must placed as Vieville did.
This as you know changes absolutely the card meaning itself and of course related with the others...
Thus this card isn t reversed is upward and Vieville,Chosson,Dodal,Jean Pierre Payen and others that Yves surely give notice of his 50 decks,weren t negligents...
I insist here that we all have an extraordinary opportunity to investigate a deck without any help than the cards themselves.
So that force us to return to the good and old exercise of just see the cards.As new born childs,as we seen the first candy pouch that now we can surely remember exactly as it was,because we saw it so not thought it,because we were ONE WITH IT...
-I told to you that I m working that I hope finish this weekend so to post here.
The main start point are the cards themselves.All with the intention to attempt to place Chosson deck.
All is around two cards for me strongly related each other: LE MAT and XIII (Both going to the same side)
THE FIRST NAMED AND UNNUMBERED,THE SECOND NUMBERED SO NOT NAMED.
Named: Someone that exists but not necesary is present so here or there or elsewhere.
Numbered: Someone who has a place designated related to others
LE MAT: Exists out of the card sequence,reinforced because is the unique card that the figure is undoubtedly moving "out" from the sequence.
XIII: Has a place related to the others,so a purpose so clear and an own meaning not overlapped to the rest of the cards,but related to them.(Death isn t named because she isn t exist really,because Spirit never die,just only the body)

-That reminds me the minors.So we have the honours named and unnumbered and the numerals numbered and unnamed.
-Also we have the aces and the deniers which both are unnumbered and unnamed.
Could it means my good friend that following my thesis above mentioned that the 56 minors or pips preceded the 22 majors ?
I mean aces and deniers are unnamed and unnumbered,so should preceded this physical world,so could depict an archetypical world ...
Pips has clearly a 4 structure based as majors so we have IIII and not IIIII,because we have a V.
Majors structure row sequence: I to V /VI to X / XI to XV / XVI to XX -- XXI end of the sequence,the new Jerusalem // LE MAT = God.

-I saw the COUPEE example and you re right..
As we know these cards show the topic : From V to VIIII
BATON and EPEE: the two V lie down as a future X to become. ( > and the contrary side placed )
COUPE : Two V also lie down but as to become a rhombus (Another Mandorla here ? / A Vagina also depiction ? /So a female relation with COUPE ? / Don t you think that the two of COUPE depict an Opium poppy,so a relation with the Land of Dreams ? ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... eh-102.jpg )

-So we have DENIERS unnumbered and unamed,and COUPE with an unique V rhombus pattern and BATON and EPEE with an becoming X.
Thus DENIERS as outside the sequence,COUPE alone ad EPEE and BATON closely related.

-Finally,again I would like to point that the cards are enough clear themselves to show us these topics.
LE MAT unnumbered also show to us that the name of the cards must place below,and that the card has a place for a number that doesn t exists.
Also as the unique card only named show that we must read the sequence from left to the right,so that why I pointed that he is going out of the sequence.
Contrary XIII card show to us that the number of the card must place at the top of the card but also that contrary LE MAT its hasn t a place or space for name it (For me just because doesn t exists ).

My best wishes and good weekend for all...

Eugim

Hello again Eugim and all,

About Jean Dodal High quality images:
I recently bought via Ebay a jean Dodal Dusserre edition fac simile.
But I have no scanner yet
So I planned to buy one and other materials that will allow me to gift you this good reproduction. ASAP.

About absinthe:
During van Gohh period of course absinthe was very consummed by painters and ordinary "working class heroes"
Armagnac, Cognac and other expensives legal drugs was for richest class.

Personnaly I prefer wine to Armagnac. A white Saint Véran or a red Saint Joseph or a red Brouilly are my preference.
But a real Calvados "made by Normandy cultivator" is a must about legal hard drugs.

About my 50 decks and François Chosson researches:
I have to print all this decks (78 cards each X 50 = 3900 cards)
To put each card aside figure by figure on files.
And... look and think.
I already bought individual plastic boxes for each.
Printed fully some.

For the moment our network works pretty well with JMD, Caldwell, Robert, you and all other humans involved.
Only looking cards is very rich but not enough to fully understand Tarot History.
Historians work is very important too as ethnology.

About Le Mat and XIII card:
I do like your remarks about named card and unnumbered card.
Something is deep inside this relationship.

But... many XIII cards of historical tarot decks are turned LEFT. :?
And this opposite direction is very rich of sense for some searchers isn' it ?

Sorry to say this but facts are facts.

Best,

Yves

Don t worry Yves,ça ira !!!

-About white wines I like too much a fresh,dry tres sec Sauvignon Blanc when in summer the Sun begin to slowly hide behind the mountains of a calm lake...
Are your beloved wines close to this one wine ?

-Thanks for your promise of Dodal scan gift,mon ami I also promise send to you a paint of mine as I done with ROM when he sent to me the pips of Chosson deck.

--I m also confused because my intention was to relate or link LE MAT and XIII about their same going to the same place as seen on Conver,Dodal,Chosson,J.P. Payen (In all both going to the right),Vievile to the left and Noblet LE MAT to the right and XIII to the left.

-XIII : Something that allways perplexed me it s that the death figure even if it s going to the right or the left,seems to have victims behind of course but also forward...
Yves,could be this depict an allegory of the perpetual work of transformation so regeneration of the Nature as seen also inside ours body each day by day ?
Suppose this just for a moment...
So then next come XIIII TEMPERANCE,so to temper the news Nature elements to renovate the Matter so the XV LE DIABLE,which like the little devils,us are tied ?

-I enocuraged JMD to open a thread (until here all been said) about LE MAT and XIII as an odd pair.Don t you think it s worth a try ?
As here in Argentine say "Here there is a cat shut in the wardrobe..."

-Of course historical facts done an awesome jobfor helping us as Ross Caldwell,Michael Dummett,Depaulis,Michael Hurst "Hurt" (our lovely,friendly Chucky here) all done and do,but i am an Image card seeker for support my beliefs.
But also I remark here as ever that I go form Tarot iconography to my own beliefs,so not and never the contrary.
Michael Chucky Hurst is right...
SEQUENCE CONVEYS MEANING. / It s for me a titanium rule,somewhat of "no trespassing: " Tarot de Marseilles rule

-You reminds to me many times Georges Simenon on a good sense of course.
What do you believe about this crime inspector ? // Maigret : I don t believe nothing...
I like this way of not attempt to cross the bridge before having it in front of us.

PS/ I will still here today saturday for at least five hours,so be on line mon ami.
VIVE LA FRANCE !!!

-Or weren t you the Frenchmen who literally reworked barely entirely all the deck ? / Thus what about the angel of TEMPERANCE ?

PS/ Here I send to you a paint done by me as an advance payment of the one of yours (Dodal gif).Take it as a gift.
Is an homage to Vincent Van Gogh /See as pronounced in French sound it as Van Saint so Saint Vincent ...
He was a mystic painter just for me sure.here I worked on his outstanding masterpiece " Wheat Field with Crows " and I entitled " Crow Field with Wheat " for you.

Eugim

There's certainly a fair amount to which I would like to reply - but will have to contend myself with one tiny point here. When Eugim writes that "if you accept that IIX is an 8 so not a XII", I personally do have no reason to consider that the intent on the decks I have seen that use "IIX" intend anything other than twelve.

Okay,my Soul Brother..
IIX as XII ...
So not the same so not easy to carry on ?

-My friendky love as ever....

Eugim