A few days ago ...
Magic Moon wrote,
MikeH answered ...By the way, I do not think that early (1440-1460 approx) there were 22 allegories in the triumph game but less, as the two Rothschild leaves and the Tarot of Lucca (Orpheus) that I suppose is the inspiration for Mikeh when he mentions a brief sequence of 13 wins suggest.
"Huck thinks the Orfeo decks are relevant, but I think they are too late to use for any origin theory."I did not understand the relevance of the two Rothschild sheets (actually, one Rothschild and one Beaux Arts) sheets and the Lucca. Huck thinks the Orfeo decks are relevant, but I think they are too late to use for any origin theory. I think the two sheets in Paris are the last 12 triumphs of a Bolognese deck, not all of them. Another two sheets could have been like the Rosenwald, with three Queens, or two and a Fool.
I remember, that MikeH wrote about the date 1722-25 for the Orfeo decks.
The following text below is somehow from Jan 8, 2017. It's a part of the thread "Sola Busca riddles" with 109 posts, which started Aug 31, 2014 and the last post is from 2020. The thread is "living research" and possibly somehow a little bit confusing .
The central part is this ...
You see here 13 special cards (12 trumps /1 Fool) of the Sola Busca and they are in their meaning the same as they are used in the Lucca Tarot (but they look rather different). The Sola Busca has 22 special cards, but the other 9 trumps look not like the standard motifs of Tarot, they are best addressed as "9 Heroes".12 cards ... with a 13th, Chariot, in the background(40) 20 World (in Sola-Busca 21)
(39) 19 Angel (in Sola-Busca 17)
(38) 18 Sol (in Sola-Busca 16)
(37) 17 Moon (in Sola-Busca 17)
(36) 16 Star (in Sola-Busca 4)
15 Tower (in Sola-Busca 20)
14 Falconer (in Sola-Busca 9) ... somehow later replaced as devil
13 Death (in Sola-Busca 13)
12 Hanging Man (in Sola-Busca 8)
11 Father Time (in Sola-Busca 5)
...
1 Panfilio (in Sola-Busca 1)
0 Mato (in Sola-Busca 0)
T he Orfeo/Lucca Tarot has totally 69 cards, the "9 Heroes" are missing. The identification of the Sola Tarocchi with standard Tarot trumps is occasionally rather difficult, this is as it is.
The Sola Busca is dated to 1491 or at least around this time. It contained the Orfeo Tarot of Lucca. So the Lucca Tarot is somehow older than 1722-25. There are even some details, which make me assume, that it is possible, that the Lucca Tarot (or another Trionfi card model) appeared in Lucca in the year 1369. And these details are not only a Prince Fibbia, who had reason to leave the Lucca region for Bologna.
The number of the post is 39 and direct link is ....
viewtopic.php?p=18572#p18572
Here are the pictures of the Sola-Busca cards, if necessary.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180112133 ... usca_Tarot
Here are pictures of a 66 cards Orfeo deck in the British Museum with the possibility to enlarge the pictures.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 1611444001
SOLA BUSCA RIDDLES 2017
Sola-Busca riddlesMy researches to the Sola-Busca Tarocchi had arrived at something rather complicated ...
http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1041
This was a state between many difficult questions ...
http://a-tarot.eu/7/z34.jpg
I came to the conclusion, that one group of cards could be related to standard trumps (with insecurities), another group not. When I arranged a table in the above given manner (0 and 21 embedding 1-20 with numbers running from the left bottom corner up to the right top), then the 9 cards with no chance to be identified gathered in the two middle groups (blue ground). One card in these middle groups was, however, very clear: The Chariot.
http://www.tarotpedia.com/w/images/thum ... _Busca.jpg
I remember ...
Somehow I arrived at ...I made a pause and recovered a bit.
I couldn't avoid to think about the Lucca Tarocchi. I hope everybody knows, what this is. It's a strange reduced Tarocchi with 69 cards, from which 13 belong to the category "special cards" (1 Fool and 12 others)
not numbered Fool
9 Wheel
10 Chariot
11 Hermit
12 Hanging Man
13 Death
14 Devil
15 Tower
not numbered Star
not numbered Moon
not numbered Sun
not numbered World
not numbered Fame
So I make now a short summary of all that, what I found out by trial and error
12 cards ... with a 13th, Chariot, in the background(40) 20 World (in Sola-Busca 21)
(39) 19 Angel (in Sola-Busca 17)
(38) 18 Sol (in Sola-Busca 16)
(37) 17 Moon (in Sola-Busca 17)
(36) 16 Star (in Sola-Busca 4)
15 Tower (in Sola-Busca 20)
14 Falconer (in Sola-Busca 9) ... somehow later replaced as devil
13 Death (in Sola-Busca 13)
12 Hanging Man (in Sola-Busca 8)
11 Father Time (in Sola-Busca 5)
...
1 Panfilio (in Sola-Busca 1)
0 Mato (in Sola-Busca 0)
Lucca Tarocchi:
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/lucca.jpg
I recognized, that 1, Panfilio took the role of Wheel card, which in Minchiate is below the Chariot. Panfilio would be the Magician in normal Tarocchi (important cause its 5 point in the game), but in the Lucca Tarocchi the Wheel would have the lowest rank of the trumps.
The function of the Chariot became clear: he was the 10 to the 9 heroes, which couldn't be identified.
*****************
Since then I got the clear opinion, that the Lucca Tarocchi rules with 69 had older roots, reaching back to 15th century. Actually a suspicion since I've learned about its existence. 69 cards, that looked like a memory on the 5x14-theory.




