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Tarot History Forum - 600 years of history in 78 cards

What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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I really do not understand why Florence has become the center for the start of Tarot.
Is it something to do with Guisto?
The Council of Florence?
The Printer and Silk sellers?
Has something changed that I have not grasped?
From the last post in the Petrarch by Mikeh ....this was said.....
In this thread Phaeded to want to derive the imagery of the CY from the imagery in what you imagine to be on the "Giusti deck". So here is a post designed to show that there was more than enough imagery in Milan to provide the necessary images in the CY.
I really agree and wonder about Florence compared with Milan. All the surviving fabric i.e.Velvet with Pomegranates seem mainly to belong to vestments and altar cloths and banners- come from Milan not Florence.
~Lorredan

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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Its pretty simple:

1. Until a Milanese "Pratesi" uncovers the same amount data regarding card production in Milan, as Pratesi has in Florence, there simply no longer a reason to even warrant a consideration of Milan (in fact Pratesi shows card-sellers moving to Milan from Florence fairly early on around the time of PMB, not the other way around). Everyone always considered Milan as an obvious option for the place for the ur-tarot based on the Visconti heraldry in the early Brambilla and CY decks, but...
2. The Brambilla and CY decks were likely not even produced in Milan but in Cremona (the Bembo workshop), albeit with some level of direction from Milan.
3. Most importantly, the earliest evidence is in Florence - Giusti specifically says he had his deck for Malatesta made in Florence. There is nothing ambiguous about this earliest reference ever to trionfi.

Until/if other evidence surfaces, one can postulate that Milan was actually third in the transmission of Tarot:
Guisti's deck is a specifies of "Anghiari trionfi" Florentine production (not the lone exemplum but rather the lone surviving mention in a journal) - > Ferrara follows suit in producing a deck for Bianca Visconti, not called as such as the name had not become common yet -> Filippo Visconti has his own version produced for his daughter's wedding, not to a d'Este prince but to Sforza (the objective, just as it was in the Ur-deck represented by Giusti's, remains the same in flattering a condottiere: Malatesta and Sforza).

I believe the final form of the 22 tarot deck took shape with the Milanese PMB and in the circulation of large numbers of that deck (and variations thereof), but being the influencing model for all subsquent decks does not mean it was the original. The historical evidence that we have clearly states Florence.

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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Thank you for your explanation Phaeded.
I have always called Tarot 'bespoke' in those luxury decks.
So do we call Tarot made for Sforza in Cremona -Cremonese?
I think we associate that deck with Sforza and call it Milanese- as with Visconti regardless where his deck was made.
We do not know where or who painted the Cary-Yale.
I have not seen a Floretine deck - say commissioned by the Medici or 'bespoke'
So Guisto had a deck bespoke for Malatesta in Florence- maybe that would be a Rimini-ese deck.
See what I am getting at?
If we found the Cary-Yale was made in Piedmonte region- what then would we call it?
I may be obtuse in this matter- I have no problem with correstion.
Is the association with the illuminator, the district or the to be owner of the deck.
~Lorredan

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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[Added next day: my post is at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=13377#p13355]

Well, are you satisfied, Lorredan?

Myself, I don't have a clue where the tarot was invented, other than Northern Italy, including Tuscany--or when, other than between 1410 and 1440.

If there were a catalysmic war, and all of Europe, North America, Japan, Australia/New Zealand, and a few other places were destroyed, and an archeologist found 20 high-tech hard-drive plants in Thailand, he wouldn't conclude that the hard-drive was invented by some genius in Thailand. That's an extreme example, of course, just to illustrate a way of thinking other than "hard data." But look at Northern Italy. Florence survived the Renaissance pretty much intact. There was no Ambrosian Republic burning the Visconti palace, followed by French looting a half century later, no pro-papacy fanatics burning the Bentivoglio's and other noble families' palaces in Bologna. There are good records in Florence, and among many strata of people; there are pretty good ones, of the court, in Ferrara. There isn't much, many other places. It's amazing how much Renaissance art has been destroyed, too.

To determine if hard drives were invented in Thailand, an archeologist would dig further, see if the culture needed to invent and market a hard-drive existed in Thailand earlier on. So in lieu of anything else, we have to look at what there was before the time in question, i.e. before 1440. If there was not much leading to the tarot already in the culture, compared to other places, I don't say, see, when the records stop, that's when it must have been invented. I say, well, we have to keep digging, not only there but other likely places, too, for the culture necessary to create the product. Complex cultural products don't appear out of thin air, and neither does the tarot appear out of just "dances of death" and mystery plays.

Production records at a particular point in time, when something becomes popular, don't show a lot about origins. If we went by production statistics, we'd say that the automobile, in the sense of a gasoline-propelled passenger vehicle with four wheels, was invented in the United States (as I think some US president did say not too long ago). We'd say the computer was invented in the United States, too, when in fact it started in Poland, among other places, and was perfected in England during World War II, as a code-breaking device. That fact was kept secret for a while, too, because of the Cold War. The computer was suddenly created out of "science," but a lot more was involved besides "science."

If all the German patent office records had been destroyed for 1885 and thereabouts, we could still figure out that probably the automobile was invented in Germany as opposed to other places, just by looking at other inventions, would-be inventions, and theoretical discussions before then. At least we'd know it wasn't the U.S.

And sometimes it turns out that something was invented in several places, different bits in different places, which then merge (e.g. automobiles and computers). Words get invented, too, which doesn't mean that the thing that got a certain name at a certain time was invented at the same time as the word.

Andrea Vitali, who has actually taught medieval iconography, says that medievalists estimate at least a 20-25 year time-lag between the invention of something and when it actually is numerous enough to appear in records now extant. Here is what Andrea says, in a footnote to his essay Il Principe. I don't know when he wrote it, but it's the first essay in his list:
Poiché i documenti più antichi conosciuti riguardanti il gioco dei Trionfi risalgono al 1440 (Firenze) e 1442 (Corte Estense), per congettura storica si deve far risalire la loro creazione ad un periodo precedente non inferiore ai venti/venticinque anni, epoca che corrisponde alla presenza del Principe a Bologna. Tale congettura, in riferimento alla pratica d’uso, è comunemente avvalorata dagli storici del medioevo. Nello specifico, è concorde con lo scrivente il Prof. Rolando Dondarini, docente di storia medievale all’Università di Bologna. Occorre infatti considerare il tempo necessario affinché questo gioco acquisisse una tale popolarità da divenire oggetto di realizzazione artistica miniata presso le corti. Inoltre il loro contenuto deve essere messo in relazione con i contesti culturali del tempo, un contenuto che, nello specifico, viene fatto risalire dal prof. Franco Cardini alla fine del Trecento o inizi Quattrocento.

(As the oldest known documents about the game of triumphs date back to 1440 (Florence) and 1442 (Estense Court), by historical assumption they must date back to at least twenty/twenty-five years earlier, a period which matches with the Prince being in Bologna. This type of conjecture, with reference to practice of use, is commonly confirmed by the historians of the middle ages. Specifically, professor Rolando Dondarini, teacher of medieval history at the University of Bologna, is an agreement with the writer. We should actually consider the time needed for this game to become so popular that it is the object of artistic illuminated production in the courts (that is, currently practised). Also, their content must be compared with the cultural contexts of the time, a subject that in specifics has been dated back to the end of the XIVth century or the beginning of the XVth by professor Franco Cardini.
(I welcome suggestions to improve this translation.) He also quotes from Decker, Dummett, and Depaulis' Wicked Pack of Cards:
A lower bound for the date of the invention is harder to determine. It probably occurred around 1425; the earliest date with any claim to be plausible would be 1410." (p. 27)
Maybe it's different now. But it is certainly true that for many things now there is just such a time lag, between invention and popular production, e.g. the automobile and the computer. And new things typically are expensive at first and get cheaper.

A lot can happen in 15-20 years. Or maybe Wicked Pack (published 17 years ago) is out of date.

Probably different researchers have different mind-sets, as to what constitutes evidence and how conclusive any given evidence is. So I don't expect these issues will ever get resolved. Meanwhile I enjoy accumulating what data I find, mostly from scholarly sources (as a pygmy standing on giants, as Michael says), and looking at what others have found and how they see it, not necessarily for "origins", but for "connecting dots," so to speak, in the history. I've been digging in Florence, Bologna, Ferrara, Milan, Venice, Cremona, Monza, Brandenburg, and other places, trying to extend what I know relating to the tarot and its place in the culture. I even dig in 14th century Padua. But I don't want to be wasting my time. So if I am, please disabuse me.

[added next day: two other significant things about Florence (1) it is where Franco does his research; and (2) it is where, right before 1440, a major church council was held, where people from all over, anticipating boredom, would have brought their favorite pastime.]
Last edited by mikeh on 08 Jan 2013, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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mikeh wrote:Well, are you satisfied, Lorredan?

Myself, I don't have a clue where the tarot was invented, other than Northern Italy, including Tuscany--or when, other than between 1410 and 1440.
:D No I am not satisfied.
I was sort of asking rhetorically of Phaeded.
As you pointed out Florence has the records and we find one mention, and from that I do not find it
Its pretty simple: at all.
I take each card, like anyone does, and look at each clue.
I find it useless to speculate on what we do not have. We do not have a Guisto deck.
Malatesta might well have wanted a Roman military deck.
So far, all I am sure about is that the PMB was a Sforza deck. I am not even sure that was a marriage deck.
It looks like a Civic deck.....Milan..Milan ...Milan and me Sforza.
I do not think it the ur deck either.
I also look to Siena, as a group the 'Good and Bad Government 'fresco is the nearest thing to Tarot outside of Tarot, and that is Civic not a salvation cycle.
I keep moving North with those passes through the Alps from France and those Swiss soldiers who keep appearing every where......with their German playing cards and then towards the Kingdom of Scilia on the way to the crusades etc. The Kingdom of Armenia and the Contact with Mamluks that gives us the suit cards......no it is not simple at all. Florence is kind of last on my list. So 1410-1440 is me too!

~Lorredan

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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In the last number of the International Playing-Card Society Papers, Thierry Depaulis announces that soon the IPCS will publish a paper by Ross Caldwell titled "The Arrival of Florence into Tarot History". "Caldwell traces the 'history' of the latest discoveries made by Cristina Fiorini, Thierry Depaulis, himself, and of course Franco Pratesi".
I am looking forward to read this :)

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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Hi Marco!
Do you remember this?
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... =christina
2008 I think.
All I really gather it is the Virtues that look Florentine (as well as the Arts) and some Sheilds are Spanish- there is an Aronganese influence and a German influence, somethiing about Naples, 1423.... 1450....Crowns on the Emperors and Charles the V1 Cards, tooled edges....oh and one Knight may have a bare bottom.....Baptistry doors....(In Florence of Course)....but then Giotto painted the Franciscan fresco with Poverty, Chastity and Obedience in c.1330
all with poly whatsit halos- so Tarot must be from Padua #:-s (I am joking of course)

I appreciate the note about the upcoming Essay from Ross.

I found this link on the same said Thread..it made a lot of sense.
Mark J. Zucker, "The Polygonal Halo in Italian and Spanish Art," Studies in Iconography 4 (1978), 61-78
Mark J. Zucker: "Early Italian Engravings for Religious Orders"
Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte, 56 Bd., H. 3 (1993), pp. 366-384
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0044-2 ... 0.CO%3B2-G
Mark J. Zucker: The Master of the "Sola-Busca Tarocchi" and the Rediscovery of Some Ferrarese Engravings of the Fifteenth Century
Artibus et Historiae, Vol. 18, No. 35 (1997), pp. 181-194
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=039...OR-enlargePage
Mark J. Zucker: An Allegory of Renaissance Politics in a Contemporary Italian Engraving: The Prognostic of 1510
Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 52, 1989 (1989), pp. 236-240
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0075-4 ... 0.CO%3B2-B
~Lorredan

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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Lorrredan wrote:
So Guisto had a deck bespoke for Malatesta in Florence- maybe that would be a Rimini-ese deck.
See what I am getting at?
And Sforza was the Count of the Marche. What is important is the relationship of these condottiere to Florence - they were in Florence's pay. Malatesta was involved in the knighting ceremony in Florence at the papal consecreration of S. Maria Fiore when Brunelleschi's dome was completed in 1436, just 4 years before Anghiari. In fact both Sforza and Malatesta were papal vicars while the pope was in Florence, and to beat a dead horse, participated in the victory at Anghiari via the papal troops lead by Cardinal Trevisan. Anghiari was a victory by the "Holy Alliance" of Florence, Venice and the Pope against Milan. Although not present, Malatesta and Sforza were the most important condottiere of that alliance. Its why I find it hard to fathom that only the absent Malatesta would receive a deck and the more important Sforza would not. Medici were still building a bridge to him at this point.

Mikeh,
Your final comment about the Council being in Florence supports the Florence origination theory, but admittedly suggests the target audience naturally included the Church (in addition to soldiers, which I propose as the other major consumers of cards as suggested by Pratesi's data; more on that elsewhere and another time). The role of the Church here is something I hardly object to because that strongly argues for the theological virtues being included from the get-go if Anghiari was the ur-tarot. More important to me is the interesting parallel to Giusti's deck: the papal hero of Anghiari celebrated Anghiari by having a medal struck with a conquering imperator upon a Roman quadriga parading before a triumphal arch; his profiled head is on the obverse (I've posted the image of that elsewhere here). All of the circumstantial evidence (and we have nothing else save Giusti's journal) for an actual triumph and subsequent deck named as such points to a Florentine triumphal celebration of the victory of Anghiari (that such a triumph did happen is mentioned by Machiavelli).

As for Vitelli's conjecture...
As the oldest known documents about the game of triumphs date back to 1440 (Florence) and 1442 (Estense Court), by historical assumption they must date back to at least twenty/twenty-five years earlier, a period which matches with the Prince being in Bologna.
...that made-up interval neatly fits his own Bologna theory and 25 years is by no means some sort of verifiable historical law that "must" exist. I'd rather deal with the historical evidence instead of historical assumptions.

Phaeded

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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Not being a trained medievalist myself, I don't adopt the 20-25 year lag rule as a general principle; in my ignorance, I just see it as a reasonable possibility a significant amount of the time, for artifacts like cards. I don't see that much has changed since Decker, Dummett, and Depaulis: just a shift from 1442 to 1440.

Thanks for pointing out the relationship of Sforza to Florence in the years right before 1440. I had missed that. But these things go both ways. Maybe Sforza didn't get a deck because he already had one, given to him by Filippo Visconti as a betrothal present or as some other honor (I'll have more on that later). Malatesta saw him as a source of decks later; perhaps this attitude was based on earlier experience. Maybe Sforza was the, or a, tarot-conduit from Milan to Florence, via the Anghiari celebrations or some other occasion. I once speculated that Piccinino could have been a conduit of the tarot to Bologna. That hypothesis wouldn't work for Florence, of course. But we have Sforza.

The same is true, obviously, for the Council of Florence: again, a place where a deck from up north could get some exposure, prior to its commercialization in Florence and maybe Bologna. (Before that, it would have been just a few gifts in Filippo's family and maybe top soldiers, in my scenario).

And maybe the coins on the CY-type Coins cards led to the design being used on actual coins later, when Filippo saw the results. (The designs on the cards are not imprints made from coins, as you can see if you compare coins and cards--at least the coins that I've seen.)

I don't disagree with much of what you say, Phaeded, certainly not about the theologicals being present early on (pre-October 1441) elsewhere besides Milan, in a deck with less than 22 triumphs--it's speculative, but why not? And the deck expanding to 22 by the time of the PMB. No problem. I've been advocating that myself. For me it's the Giotto influence. But I just don't see the cultural basis for such a scenario in Florence pre-1440, which seems to have ignored Petrarch's Triumphs until a letter from Milan in 1439, and even after that used Boccaccio and the Latin classics for inspiration on its "Triumph" cassone rather than Petrarch's poem. Also Florence doesn't seem to have had nearly as strong an association with the 7 standard virtues as the Visconti, as you are discovering. I could be wrong, but if so, show me.
Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jan 2017, 05:08, edited 1 time in total.

Re: What's With the Concentration on Florence and Tarot?

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mikeh wrote: For me it's the Giotto influence. But I just don't see the cultural basis for such a scenario in Florence pre-1440, which seems to have ignored Petrarch's Triumphs until a letter from Milan in 1439, and even after that used Boccaccio and the Latin classics for inspiration on its "Triumph" cassone rather than Petrarch's poem. Also Florence doesn't seem to have had nearly as strong an association with the 7 standard virtues as the Visconti, as you are discovering. I could be wrong, but if so, show me.
Mikeh,
Why place such an emphasis on Petrarch? I hardly think he was ignored in his home town (considered one of the "three crowns" after all) but his Trionfi could have influenced the iconography of only up to six of the cards, so at all events not model for the trump series. I continue to see a seven virtues template with 7 exemplars to which another 7 get added in the PMB. Petrarch was a contributing factor but not essential to the basis of the trump series IMO.

Phaeded