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Tarot History Forum - 600 years of history in 78 cards

The strange Star

1
Hi friends!

... :-?... Its not more logic the sequence is: [Magician] - Moon - Sun - Star - [World]?????

The eighth sphere is above the wandering stars or... ?

Re: The strange Star

2
Yes, since Galilei this has more logic. But before Galilei ...

Temperance ... upper water / lower water ... didn't exist in 14 Bembo trumps
Devil = darkness ... didn't exist in 20 trumps of Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo
Lightning = small light ... didn't exist in 20 trumps of Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo
Star = morning/evening star = planet Venus = Eos = bigger light ... ... didn't exist in 14 Bembo trumps
Moon = Selene = more bigger light ... ... didn't exist in 14 Bembo trumps
Sun = Helios = biggest light ... ... didn't exist in 14 Bembo trumps

Alright, the Chaldean row is older and has an other system ... :-)

Re: The strange Star

3
mmfilesi wrote:Hi friends!

... :-?... Its not more logic the sequence is: [Magician] - Moon - Sun - Star - [World]?????

The eighth sphere is above the wandering stars or... ?
I think, by its placement below the Moon, that the card "The Star" - and the sequence Star-Moon-Sun (-World, I would add, that is the A order), clearly indicates that the meaning is NOT a schematic cosmological diagram. It is obvious, and has always been common knowledge, whatever system of astronomy has been used, anywhere in the world, that the stars are further out than the furthest known planet ("wanderer"), Saturn. They were also assumed to be immutable.

In other words, The Star cannot be "the fixed stars", IF the intention were to present a celestial hierarchy going higher and higher up (like that shown, for instance, in the E Series).

However, if the intention were not to present the Sphere of the Fixed Stars, but a "new star" or some other celestial event, then the cosmological sequence is appropriate. This is because, in the Aristotelian scheme, any change observed in the sky was assumed to be below the Moon, including comets and novae (because everything above the Moon was immutable). It was not until Tycho Brahe proved that a nova observed in 1572 was further out than any planet (because it did not move at all in relation to the fixed stars - parallax), that the old Aristotelian scheme began to break down. He also discovered that comets moved among the planets, which Aristotelian cosmology taught was impossible.

So, if the "star" is a new star (nova), a celestial sign (like the Star of Bethlehem), then it is appropriately placed in a cosmological scheme (sometimes the Star of Bethlehem was interpreted as a comet as well).

Perhaps, then, the meaning is a combination of symbolism and cosmology, the Star meaning "advent", the celestial sign which announced the coming of Christ, as well as the advent and deification or apotheosis of others throughout history.

As Venus (Eos/Dawn - Hesperus/Evening) it also is not in the correct hierarchical order, if that were the intention. However, as the "Morning Star", it is symbolically connected to the Advent Star and Christ through Revelation 22:16 (stella splendida et matutina), an equation known to everyone.

Even if a cosmological hierarchy is not intended, another possible interpretation is one of increasing brightness. This is noted by Huck above, and has been noted before by Michael Hurst. The earliest person to use this interpretation was Francesco Piscina (who also seems to have wanted a cosmological scheme). See pages 22-25 of Explaining the Tarot. The anonymous author, in contrast to Piscina, just groups all of these celestial things together as "creatures of God" (p. 63).

But increasing brightness to what? This depends on whether you take the A order or the B and C orders.

For the most part, I take the Star to represent an advent star, and the announced advent to be the figure on the World card. Both cosmology and increasing brightness are appropriate strategies to set up the climax - the appearance of the most glorious brightness, outshining even the Sun - the World-figure.

Re: The strange Star

4
Well, the old Greek married Hyperion (something like the "man in the moon" perhaps) to Theia (which means light).

They got three children: Helios (obviously sun, day and south), Selene (obviously moon, night and north) and Eos, the morning sun (and somehow also the evening sun; so the phases between day and night and somehow East and West)

Helios is noted in various love affairs, the basic model might be 4 women and about 19 children ... possibly inspired by Meton cycle, which takes 6940 days or c. 19 years. But the model might be a little confused, cause possibly various locations had sun cults and "demanded a story"

Selene had only one man, the always sleeping Endymion, who inspired her to 50 daughters.

Eos was the goddess of evolution, so she took more than one man. The first was Astraios, a Titan as herself. Astraios is associated to the stars ...
ASTRAIOS (or Astraeus) was the Titan god of the stars and planets, and the art of astrology. By Eos (the Dawn) he was the father of the seasonal Winds and the Stars. The arrival of these Winds was heralded by the rising of certain constellations. Astraios also had a daughter named Astraia, the goddess of the constellation Virgo.


But Eos left Astraios, and had other loves, Orion, Kephalos, Tithonus. Tithonus got everlasting life, but got weaker from day to day. Kephalos (the "head") was mortal, who opened the problem of the paradoxon, which occured, when a dog, who never failed met a fox, who couldn't be caught. Orion was killed by Artemis (who got a lot of functions of Eos), cause Apollo (the Helios-follower) cheated Artemis, who also loved Orion. So Artemis (also follower of Selene) stayed virgin, but became responsible for pregnancy.

Well, a goddess between day and night.

******************

Well, in the question of the four lights in Tarot, which according Ross ...
Even if a cosmological hierarchy is not intended, another possible interpretation is one of increasing brightness. This is noted by Huck above, and has been noted before by Michael Hurst. The earliest person to use this interpretation was Francesco Piscina (who also seems to have wanted a cosmological scheme). See pages 22-25 of Explaining the Tarot. The anonymous author, in contrast to Piscina, just groups all of these celestial things together as "creatures of God" (p. 63).
... we have, that Martianus da Tortona, translated by Ross, in the description of the god Jupiter ...
JOVE

Jove, who was the King of Athens while antiquity was still rough and wild. For the race of man, there was yet no justice, and man followed savage rites; Jupiter established the first laws. And he instituted matrimony, and banished the abominable feasts on human flesh, and forbade them by strict rigour. He induced the first society and friendship, and taught to men what is most necessary.
He commanded the first temples and altars to the immortal gods to be built, and to venerate them with the highest dignity. And the men asked the gods anything of the good that they desired. And if he deemed it worthy he would himself fulfil what they had prayed for. The inventor of wars, he overcame the Giants, mockers of the gods, and afflicted them with onerous punishment. Therefore on account of his outstanding virtue, the former age venerated him, and he was esteemed by the people as a god. And he was called Good Jove, and temples were dedicated to him, to the perpetual memory of his glory. Thus holding the divine honour, his name was received by posterity in the highest veneration. He is seated on a starry throne, with regal emblems. Four stars appearing above, attend him, while by the right part a splendour of right reason [first light] of the conduct of humanity, in which customs he instructed ingnorant men, the first leaders of the state. At the left that light by which he published the inviolable laws [second light] and he decreed the society which would be cherished by humankind, being guarded by equality. On the lower right side appears a burning star like Mars, [third light] which he lets loose frightfully if scorned, but especially so that the republic may be preserved. How the illustrious example of Jupiter shines for men! Who for the sake of sacred worship happily defeated the blaspheming Giants by war. To the left, a thunderbolt, [fourth light] which at one time he often used to protect his sacred laws against so many lustful and violent men.
According the description we've to expect in the picture organization something like this, a figure with 4 elements in the four corners ...

Image


... just that the central figure is jupiter shown as a man on a throne, and the four elements in the corners "light symbols", somehow likely sun-moon-star-lightning, although this is not clearly said in the text.

Well, this happened before Piscina, even before the Trionfi decks of the later Tarot style.

For the construction of the Michelino deck it has to be observed, that it had 16 cards and Jupiter with this as highest trump had an orientation towards the Nr. 16

.. as it also already appears in the Jupiter square (4x4), in contrast to the Saturn square (3x3), which depends on the use of the Chaldean row ...

Saturn 3x3
Jupiter 4x4
Mars 5x5
Sun 6x6
Venus 7x7
Mercury 8x8
Moon 9x9

... so a rather old construction and context.

Image


In the context of the later Trionfi/Tarot development it has to be observed, that the earlier role of the number 16 (Jupiter plus 4 symbols) was splitted to ..

16 lightning
17 star
18 moon
19 sun
..
21 World

This idea appeared in the times of the group LTarot some years ago during the research about the Michelino deck ... usually Tower was then identified more as a symbol of destruction instead as a fourth light (as what it is likely still identified mostly also nowadays).

Re: The strange Star

5
:) Thank you for these interesting answers, friends.
In other words, The Star cannot be "the fixed stars", IF the intention were to present a celestial hierarchy going higher and higher up (like that shown, for instance, in the E Series)
Yes, yes. I think you have reason.
(like the Star of Bethlehem)
Yes. This is very probably at least for PMB, Minchiate of century XVIII, Rothschild sheet, tarocchino al Leone.
As Venus (Eos/Dawn - Hesperus/Evening) it also is not in the correct hierarchical order, if that were the intention. However, as the "Morning Star", it is symbolically connected to the Advent Star and Christ through Revelation 22:16 (stella splendida et matutina), an equation known to everyone.
I dont know it. This is very interesting. Thanks, friend.
The earliest person to use this interpretation was Francesco Piscina (who also seems to have wanted a cosmological scheme).
... :-? ... I do not know if I agree with Pisicina.

He said:

Dietro i Demoni viene il Fuoco per debito mezo fra le stelle cose celesti, & le mondane per esser si come i Naturali o Filosofi [20] affermano elemento che prima si trovi della Luna, Sole e d' ogni altra Stella, ora havendo noi da entrare nelle cose celesti vedremmo l' Inventore haver osservato un bellissimo ordine, come che dij gran ornamento e splendore alle cose (si come nel principio di questo nostro Discorso habbiamo provato) pone adunque prima cose ch' appariscano la notte come ch' ella sij d' assai da meno dil giorno come adesso vi sarra manifesto cio è le stelle.

Translate:

After the Demons, comes Fire, as the due mean between the stars, that are celestial, and mundane things: it is, as affirmed by Naturalists or Philosophers, the [20] element that is found before the Moon, the Sun and any other Star. Now, entering celestial things, we will see the most beautiful order followed by the Inventor, giving things the greatest ornament and splendour (as we have proven at the beginning of this Discourse).

But I dont think the Tower is the Fire, but Hell (or something similar, as the pain of loss). That is, I think there is a radical break between the Tower and the Star. There is not conceptual continuity.
For the most part, I take the Star to represent an advent star, and the announced advent to be the figure on the World card. Both cosmology and increasing brightness are appropriate strategies to set up the climax - the appearance of the most glorious brightness, outshining even the Sun - the World-figure.
OK. I understand. Thanks!

.. as it also already appears in the Jupiter square (4x4), in contrast to the Saturn square (3x3), which depends on the use of the Chaldean row ...

Saturn 3x3
Jupiter 4x4
Mars 5x5
Sun 6x6
Venus 7x7
Mercury 8x8
Moon 9x9
:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o ... LOL :D . I dont understand nothing. What is this? Can you explain me what is this Chaldean row, please?

Re: The strange Star

6
Magic squares (planets assigned in "Chaldean" order) -

Prime Mover = 1
Fixed Stars = 2
Saturn = 3
Jupiter = 4
Mars = 5
Sun = 6
Venus = 7
Mercury = 8
Moon = 9
Sphere of the Elements (Sublunar, Earth) = 10

The "magic" is that the numbers add up to the same number in all columns, rows, and diagonals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_square

Saturn=15
4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6

Jupiter=34
4 14 15 1
9 7 6 12
5 11 10 8
16 2 3 13

Mars=65
11 24 7 20 3
4 12 25 8 16
17 5 13 21 9
10 18 1 14 22
23 6 19 2 15

Sol=111
6 32 3 34 35 1
7 11 27 28 8 30
19 14 16 15 23 24
18 20 22 21 17 13
25 29 10 9 26 12
36 5 33 4 2 31
Venus=175
22 47 16 41 10 35 4
5 23 48 17 42 11 29
30 6 24 49 18 36 12
13 31 7 25 43 19 37
38 14 32 1 26 44 20
21 39 8 33 2 27 45
46 15 40 9 34 3 28

Mercury=260
8 58 59 5 4 62 63 1
49 15 14 52 53 11 10 56
41 23 22 44 45 19 18 48
32 34 35 29 28 38 39 25
40 26 27 37 36 30 31 33
17 47 46 20 21 43 42 24
9 55 54 12 13 51 50 16
64 2 3 61 60 6 7 57

Luna=369
37 78 29 70 21 62 13 54 5
6 38 79 30 71 22 63 14 46
47 7 39 80 31 72 23 55 15
16 48 8 40 81 32 64 24 56
57 17 49 9 41 73 33 65 25
26 58 18 50 1 42 74 34 66
67 27 59 10 51 2 43 75 35
36 68 19 60 11 52 3 44 76
77 28 69 20 61 12 53 4 45

Re: The strange Star

8
Chaldean row (Chaldaean row) is the order of the ancient planets (including sun and moon and the first 5 known planets) according to the time they need for a circle around sun ... and earth is replaced by sun.

... :-) actually "Chaldean row") is a translation of a common German term "Chaldäische Reihe" ... I don't know, what term the English language has formed. The Chaldean row existed for Ptolemy around 100 AD, but is likely older date. The planetary ruler of the days of the week are arranged according a variation of the Chaldean row, which depends on the planetary ruler of the 24 hours.

It seems, that we've the doubtful honor to have transferred the expression "chaldean row" to English language ...

http://www.google.com/search?q=chaldean ... d3fc43a49b

http://www.google.com/search?q=chaldaea ... d3fc43a49b

http://www.google.com/search?q=chald%C3 ... d3fc43a49b

... :-) ...