Tarot History Forum

I mentioned this in Alain Bougerel’s thread, searching the forum I cannot find reference to this example of Venetian appropriati, so thought it might deserve a thread of its own. My apologies if it has been dealt with elsewhere.

In "Commerce, Peace, and the Arts in Renaissance Venice: Ruzante and the Empire at Center Stage" published in May 2016 author Linda L. Carroll devotes a whole chapter mostly to an example of Venetian Tarocchi Appropriati I don't recall seeing before (though she herself does not make any reference to tarot or appropriati, that is what it appears to be).

"The third chapter analyzes an important Venetian literary manuscript of the period in the Bodleian Library of Oxford University whose copyist had remained unknown and whose contents have been little studied. The identity of the copyist, a central figure in the worlds of theatrical and historical and, now, literary writing in early sixteenth century Venice, is clarified and the works in the manuscript connected to the cultural worlds of Venice, Padua and Rome."

The 8th Capitolo “capitolo de alcune done famose di veneta” (fols 49r-53r), Canonical Ital. 36, Bodleian. c. 1520’s

From a collection of the Venetian Chronicler Stefano Magno (b.circa 1499 – d. 14 October 1572) :

Isabeta Diedo – whose beauty flies through the world
Paola Venier – whose cheerful spirit lifts and whose insignia is impartial justice
Isabetta Barbarigo – with an angel signifying her goodness
Cecilia Dandolo – the fame of her beauty signified by the sun
Andriana Pesaro – her modesty, coldness and chastity denoted by the moon
Lucretia Venier – is wise and guided by her star along the path of virtue
Elena Zane – has an inner spark that will kindle conjugal love
Maria Caravello – bear the devil on her crown as if to say “I am the enemy of the virtuous”
little Quirini – who is death to amorous leanings
Marieta Capello – who is hardened against frivolous love
Lucieta Soranza – who shows that time ruins beauty
Barozzi –
Marina Emo –
Bianca Grimani – the enemy of vice, who waged war on love with an arrow caught in her lap
Laureta Foscari – who has stolen beauty from others but is inhuman in love
Maria Lion – who is neither merciful nor cruel
Maria da Leze – who is so devout she is with the pope
Isabeta Venier – who is so ardent and willing in love she almost keeps up with her partner, and saves others
Marieta Bibbiena – who because of her papessa believes herself to be to others as the sea is to a river
Hieronima Venier – has eternal honor and title of empress
Helena Zen – whose burning eyes inspires men who are followers of love
Laura Cocco – who fears no word or infamy

For details of this capitolo, and identification and relationships of some of these women, and the Caravello incident, see Commerce, Peace, and the Arts in Renaissance Venice by Linda L. Carroll:

“A review of the women described in the capitolo shows them to have been the wives of leading patricians of Magno’s day, with many of whom he had personal connections including through compagnie della calza, and many of whom had demonstrable or possible connections with Caravello incident..." [the tarring of leading citizens houses during Mardi Gras 1522, as an act of revenge on some people who refused an invitation to a party held by Marco Grimadi.]

On the manuscript Carroll writes:

“Containing a miscellany of literary works in Italian and Latin, chiefly poetry, the manuscript bears the rubric ‘Jesus 1520 Vene(tiis’ at the top of the recto and the verso of most folios....”

“....While the subject matter of works was eclectic, Magno’s arrangement of them was strictly by genre, with each section labeled. He included over one hundred sonnets... a pasquinade, two collections of inscriptions on medals, ballots and comment, commentary on the election of Adrian VI, 16 capitali, 17 canzoni, two eclogues, 12 madrigals, four frottole, a prose novella, a poem recited by five, another capitoli, an ottava, two love letters and 15 epitaphs.... Although he omitted the names of many of the authors, Alessandro de Mortara identified the sonnets as largely by Pietro Bembo, Giovanni Antonio Brocardo and Bernadino Daniello of Lucca; some of the capitoli by Bembo, Ludovico Ariosto, Andrea Navagero, Bernadinno Daniello, and Onofrio Veronese; most of the canzoni by Ariosto, Bembo, Brocardo, Girolamo Verite, Francesco Maria Molza and Daniell; and eleven of the madrigals as works of Daniello and one of Onofrio Veronese.... Dating of the works in the absence of external evidence is complicated by the fact that the date inscribed at the top of the folios is the one on which the manuscript was inaugurated (not the one on which a given folio had work entered onto it) and by the division into genre sections, to which works were apparently added separately on various dates.


Some of these same women also appear in the Poem of Pomeran, 1534:

Mondo (The World) = Andriana Cornera
Giustitia (Justice) = ‘La bella’ Barbarigo
Angelo (The Angel) = Isabella Grimani
Sole (The Sun) = Laureta Tron
Luna (The Moon) = Grazimana
Stella (The Star) = Isabetta Sanuto
Foco (Fire) = Bianca Contarini
Diauolo (The Devil) = Laura Bollani
Morte (Death) = Paula Capello
Traditore (The Traitor) = Mocenigo
Tempo (Time) = Maria Leone
Rota (The Wheel [of Fortune]) = Paola Mora
Fortezza (Fortitude) = Paula Querini
Amore (Love) = Orsina Foscholeta
Carro Triomphale (The Chariot) = Maria Lauredan
Temperanza (Temperance) = Bianca Zeno
Papa (The Pope) = ‘Famos’ Albertha
Imperatore (The Emperor) = Benedetta Pisani
Papessa (The Popess) = Marieta Zanni
Imperatrice (The Empress) = Paschalig
Bagattela (The Juggler) = Paula Valier
Matto (The Fool) = Nicolo Cornera

Pomeran da Cittadella, Troilo fl. Venice 1534
Triomphi de Troilo Pomeran da Cittadela composti sopra li Terrocchi in
Laude delle famose Gentil donne di Vinegia.
Venice, Giovanni Antonio dei Nicolini da Sabbio, 1534

Some of the Ladies attached to these cards (or at least, Ladies with the same names) were also used in the poem Temple of Love (Tempio di amore) by Niccolò Franco, published by Francesco Marcolini da Forlì while he was in Venice in 1536. The following year he became secretary to Pietro Aretino. Not in this case associated with tarocchi however.

For example:

Andriana Cornaro
Isabetta Barbarico
Isabella Grimani
Laura Tron
Gracimana Giani
Bianca Contarini
Isabetta Mocenico
Paula Moro
Paula Quirini
Orsa Foscolo
Maria Lauredana
Marina Alberti
Maria Giane (Zane?)

See Carte da gioco e letteratura tra Quattrocento e Ottocento (1997) by Lucia Nadin Bassan, p.91-98

A part of the 2016 text of Linda L. Carroll is here ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=xtAeDAAAQBAJ

I have been in touch with Linda Carroll and obtained some more information, including transcription of original Italian for the description of some of the Ladies missing from her book. I have passed this on to Ross who is now dealing with it, and he will no doubt update us with more complete information when he can.

After sitting on it for six years (!) I have finally uploaded Linda's transcription of the entire poem to the Tarot History facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1457073 ... 945434459/

Linda added her translation of it, which is very helpful.

There are a couple of places where her interpretation could be disputed, such as the verse concerning Time: "Il tempo haveva lej tra questa mostra". Linda translated that as "Time placed her amidst this display", but it could also be understood as "She had Time amidst this display", i.e. she was assigned the Time trump in this display.

This poem remains the earliest known example of what could be called the "classic" tarocchi appropriati work, where the poet uses the trumps to make witty and/or flattering observations about various women. There is only one other tarocchi appropriati poem of any kind which is as old as this, namely Petro Aretino's pasquinata mocking the papal conclave of 1521. Given the relatively large number of tarocchi appropriati works from northeastern Italy, it is likely that the genre had its origins in Venice, and the Stefano Magno poem could even have been the start of it.

Nathaniel wrote: 08 Sep 2026, 14:57 After sitting on it for six years (!) I have finally uploaded Linda's transcription of the entire poem to the Tarot History facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1457073 ... 945434459/

Thank you Nathaniel!

Catalogue of Venetian Women and Their Emblems

Isabeta Diedo: Mondo
Carrying the World with the Angel above; her beauty flies throughout the world in verse and rhyme.

Paula Venier: Iustitia
Joyful and radiant; crowned with Justice, which gives each person their due without partiality.

Isabeta Barbarigo: Angelo
Beautiful and honored; crowned with the Divine Angel who adorns the heavens, her goodness is worthy of heaven's adoration.

Cecilia Dandolo: Sol
Kind and splendid; crowned with the Sun, whose light and beauty carry her fame from east to west.

Andriana da Pesaro: Luna
Rare in beauty; crowned with the Moon, confident in her modesty and demonstrating that coldness is a friend to chastity.

Lucretia Venier: Stella
Radiant and gracious; guided by the Star, a sign that she is a secure harbor of virtue along the crooked path.

Elena Zane: Foco
Graceful and agile; bearing the Fire, warm and shining, declaring herself the spark of conjugal love.

Maria Caravello: Diavol
Clever and shrewd in love, and not lacking in beauty; bearing the Devil, declaring herself the enemy of the virtuous.

Querini Massola: Morte
Beautiful and humane; bearing Death, having always been a rebel against vain loves, as a reminder that death puts an end to the passions of love.

Marieta Capello: Traditor
Lovely and pure; bearing the Traitor, whose betrayal disturbs her beauty, for no faith can rest securely in unstable love.

Lucieta Soranzo: Tempo
Heir of beauty; bearing Time, which runs swiftly, warning that time will destroy your beauty.

Marina Emo: Rota
A beautiful and noble lady; bearing the Wheel, which changes its course and never remains fixed, showing how the noble may become lowly.

Fontana di Barozzi: Forteza
Gentle and prudent; accompanied by Fortitude, giving every writer a worthy subject, with a strength apparent to all who see her.

Bianca Grimani: Amor
A true sign of love and an enemy of vice; bearing Love, who, being blind, seizes her in his lap as though cunningly waging war.

Laureta Foscari: Caro triomphale
Beautiful and proud; remaining with the triumphal chariot, showing by her pleasing manner that she is proud and impervious to love.

Maria Lion: Temperantia
Beautiful and delightful; bearing Temperance, which keeps the safer middle path between nature’s extremes, neither pitiless nor cruel.

Maria da Leze: Papa
Faithful, kind, and pious in prayer; bearing the Pope, signifying that she is joined more than the others and more friendly to God.

Isabeta Venier: Imperator
Bold and ready in love; crowned with the Emperor, because she is “more than any other a champion of faith,” willing to make sacrifices to save another.

Marieta Bibbiena: Papessa
Exceptionally beautiful and presumptuous; likened to a phoenix that rises too high, she bears the Popess and presumes to stand above the others like the sea compared with a river.

Hieronima Venier: Imperatrice
Worthy of eternal honor; bearing the Empress, as one worthy of empire and a solitary defense against faithlessness.

Helena Zen: Bagatela
Captivating and ardent; bearing the Bagatella, which makes the false appear true, though pleasure ultimately makes us content.

Laura Cocho: Mato
Fearless of honor or infamy; bearing the Fool, dressed in many colors and calling herself a “fool, swift of foot,” leaving the poet's soul bewildered simply by being seen.

Interesting that the poem says the images (trumps) that crowned the ladies were both numbered & named:

E maraviglia presi che ridute
havevano sopra le corone o chiome
imagine dj certe oscure e brute
Et sottoscrito havea numerj e nome.

Which possibly demonstrates that, in this Venetian tarocchi appropriati, the trump figures/images were conceived and presented as having associated numbers and names, apparently actually written beneath the images represented on the women's crowns/hair.

I also find the reference to the Phoenix in connection with the Papessa of interest - like the Phoenix which rises too high, the poem is suggesting the elevation of the Papessa is "unbecoming"?

Vidj dapo costej una phenice
che per haver tropo belle le piume
tant’alta ne va ch’a ognun disdice,
Marieta Bibiena che presume
per la papessa sua esser tra l’altre
qual il mare a paragon d’un fiume.

Following her, I saw a phoenix, whose feathers are so beautiful that it rises too high, to the point of becoming unbecoming to all: Marieta Bibiena, who, through her Popess, presumes to rank herself among the others as the sea compared with a river.

Bibiena's phoenix appears to exploit a Petrarchan association between the phoenix and the exceptional lover or beloved. In Petrarchan poetry, the phoenix's singularity, beauty, solar ascent, death, and renewal could serve as flattering images of extraordinary and enduring love. In Petrarch's poem 135, the solitary phoenix provides an explicit analogue for the speaker's desire: its ascent toward the sun corresponds to the elevation of desire toward “noble thought,” while its death and rebirth mirror the lover's repeated destruction and renewal.⁣
⁣
Bibiena's 𝘗𝘢𝘱𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘢 turns this vocabulary inside out. Her phoenix has “too beautiful” feathers (𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘱𝘰 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦 𝘭𝘦 𝘱𝘪𝘶𝘮𝘦), and precisely because of this excess it rises “so high” (𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵'𝘢𝘭𝘵𝘢 𝘯𝘦 𝘷𝘢) that its elevation is unbecoming to everyone (𝘢 𝘰𝘨𝘯𝘶𝘯 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘥𝘪𝘤𝘦). The phoenix's exceptional beauty and elevation, qualities that can function as praise within the Petrarchan tradition, thus become signs of excess and impropriety. The inversion is made explicit when Marieta Bibiena is said to 𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘮𝘦 to rank herself among the others “as the sea in comparison with a river.”⁣
⁣
Where the Petrarchan phoenix can embody the lover's or beloved's singularity, elevated desire, and capacity for renewal, Bibiena's phoenix embodies excessive self-elevation. Its uniqueness has become presumption; its beauty has become excess; and its ascent, rather than signifying noble spiritual elevation, is rendered socially unbecoming.

Curiously, Pomeran's Triomphi de Troilo Pomeran also includes 21 stanza's dedicated to the author's Fenice (Phoenix) - presumably meaning to the lover or beloved - but I cannot be sure as I have not read the poem.

𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐨: 𝐋𝐚𝐮𝐫𝐚 𝐂𝐨𝐜𝐨

Canonici:
Laura Cocho : Il Mato
𝘐𝘭 𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘰 𝘭𝘪 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘰𝘣𝘫 𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘰 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘪𝘦𝘮𝘦
𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘩𝘦 𝘭’𝘢𝘭𝘮𝘢 𝘪𝘯 𝘮𝘪𝘳𝘢𝘳 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘣𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘪𝘵𝘢...
...𝘶𝘯 𝘵𝘪𝘵𝘰𝘭 𝘤𝘩𝘦 𝘥𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘢 𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘢 𝘦𝘹𝘱𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘵𝘢.

From Trionfo di Jacomo Barbo:
"Barbo takes occasion to praise various beautiful Venetian gentlewomen, among whom are Elisabetta Diedo, Andrianna da Pesaro, Chiara da Pesaro, Elena Pisani, Elisabetta Veniera, Manetta Legge, Cecilia Foscari, Callaruzza Corner, Elcnetta Donato, Lauretta Foscari, Girolama Veniera, Beatrice Malipiera, Isabelta Grimana, Marina Grimana, Chiara Zustinian, Laura Cocco, one Olio, one Caravello, one Bibiena, etc. Like the canoni It begins with Diedo:

The first, greatest of them all,
who holds everything within herself, is Lisabetta Diedo,
more worthy of every honor than the whole world.

and ends with Lauro Cocho:

Amidst that vast company, I also saw
Laura Cocho, who was lingering behind,
crying: “Foolish Love [Cupid], take counsel now.
Deceitful Love is more fragile than glass,
for he would not contend with these [women]:
thus he said as he turned away”; and as I retraced my steps,
my thoughts kept returning to those words.

Names as they appear in the Canonici tarocchi appropriati and the Trionfo di Jacomo Barbo, with obvious spelling variants normalized, the overlaps are:*

Elisabetta Diedo | Canonici: Mondo
Andriana da Pesaro | Canonici: Luna
Maria di Leze | Canonici: Papa
Elisabetta Venier(a) | Canonici: Imperatore
Lauretta Foscari | Canonici: Carro trionfale
Girolama Venier(a) | Canonici: Imperatrice
Querineta Massola? | Canonici: Morte
Laura Cocco/Cocho | Canonici: Mato
Caravello | Canonici: Diavolo (Maria Caravello)
Bibiena | Canonici: Papessa (Marieta Bibiena)

*Overlaps in names, not in trump assignments.

Thanks for pointing out the overlap in the names with the Barbo poem, Steve! I had not noticed that before, and it puts a major question mark over the date of the Stefano Magno poem: I'm now wondering if Linda Carroll may have erred in dating it so early. 1521/1522 is considerably earlier than the other tarocchi appropriati poems of this type. I'd like to look into this further, especially by examining the text to see how well it supports Linda's reasoning, but I don't have time just at the moment. I'll just point out a couple of things now:

- You appear to have mistakenly identified (El)Isabetta Grimani as one of the shared names: she is only in Barbo. But you also missed one, namely Magno's "la querineta massola" (Death): this could well be Barbo's Quirina (the Star). So the total number of potentially shared names remains the same.

- Based on Lucia Nadin's assessment in Carte da gioco e letteratura tra Quattrocento e Ottocento, 1997, I concluded that the Barbo poem most likely dates to around 1540. It seems extremely unlikely that so many names would be shared if there were almost two decades separating the two poems. Cf. the Motti poem in Pavia, which is one of a set of three similar works which all appear to have been composed within a few years, yet the overlap of names between the three is comparable to this. Also see pp. 112-3 of Nadin's book, where she points out that seven of Barbo's women are also named in a similar work, Tempio d'Amore by Nicolò Franco dating from 1536, and four of Barbo's names appear in three other such works from 1534 (Pomeran's famous tarocchi appropriati poem) to 1548.

This strongly suggests a later date for the Magno poem, most likely within a few years of 1535, given that the Time card does not yet seem to have the Budapest design, but rather an earlier design that appears to have foregrounded the aspect of swift movement.

Nathaniel wrote: 09 Sep 2026, 08:24 - You appear to have mistakenly identified (El)Isabetta Grimani as one of the shared names: she is only in Barbo. But you also missed one, namely Magno's "la querineta massola" (Death): this could well be Barbo's Quirina (the Star). So the total number of potentially shared names remains the same.

Thanks for catching that error, have amended the post.

- Based on Lucia Nadin's assessment in Carte da gioco e letteratura tra Quattrocento e Ottocento, 1997, I concluded that the Barbo poem most likely dates to around 1540. It seems extremely unlikely that so many names would be shared if there were almost two decades separating the two poems.

It seems unlikely, but I think that conclusion may be premature. How many of these noble families were not merely friends or colleagues in civic positions, but were also interconnected by marriage and extended kinship? If the same families formed a relatively stable social network, the recurrence of names across works separated by a decade or two would be considerably less surprising.

As a modern analogy, several generations of my own extended family have played the same card game at family gatherings, such as but not only Christmas for as far back as I can remember, which is more than sixty years. Also here as an ex-pat in Turkey I have been meeting up with a disparate group of ex-pats but with a regular core of consistent participants in game nights (cards, pool, chess, backgammon, dominos, darts) for the past 20+ years.

Obviously that is not evidence for what happened in sixteenth-century Venice, but it illustrates why the mere persistence of a social group over several decades need not be regarded as inherently improbable. Marriage alliances, kinship, political office, mutual commercial or business dealings, neighbourhood, patronage, and shared literary or recreational circles could all preserve such connections over considerable periods.

I therefore agree that tracing these individuals, their dates, marriages, kinship networks, and social connections wherever possible could potentially narrow the date range considerably. But I don't think our present understanding can be dismissed simply on the assumption that the same group of people could not have remained socially interconnected over a couple of decades. The recurrence of names is certainly evidence worth explaining, but it is not, by itself, a secure chronological argument.

Another point may be worth considering here. The Canonici poem itself contains several members of the Venier family, Paula Venier, Elisabetta Venier, Lucretia Venier, and Hieronima Venier. The Veniers are possibly interesting in this context because their association with tarot/trionfi culture may extend considerably further back: the Sola Busca tarot, conventionally dated to around 1491, bears a Venier coat of arms.

Also see pp. 112-3 of Nadin's book, where she points out that seven of Barbo's women are also named in a similar work, Tempio d'Amore by Nicolò Franco dating from 1536, and four of Barbo's names appear in three other such works from 1534 (Pomeran's famous tarocchi appropriati poem) to 1548.

I made reference to them in Post 1, but it was made a long time ago and I need to check it for possible errors in the lists of names.

It seems unlikely, but I think that conclusion may be premature.

It's a matter of weighing up the evidence for each side of the argument. I'll look first at the evidence in favor of the later date:

There is the Motti poem in Pavia as a likely parallel situation, regarding which, see my posts here: viewtopic.php?t=2207
The three poetic works involved in that situation have an even higher overlap of names than in the current case: one of them has only 8 or 9 names not found in at least one of the other two, one of the others had 14 unique names, and the Motti had 10 or 11. Those three works appear to have been part of an annual tradition enjoyed each Epiphany by a particular section of Pavian high society. It probably involved some element of performance or pageantry, which included recitation of the verses written for the event. Analysis of the names confirms that at least two of the poems are very likely to have been written within a few years of each other, and therefore the third poem probably was also.

The Venetian poems also seem to have been written for events that involved some element of performative pageantry. The Barbo poem uses only a family name or a given name for some of the ladies, which strongly suggests that the ladies in question would have been physically present during a recitation of the poem, as it would probably have been difficult to identify them with certainty from the verses alone. It was also found in a collection of "theatrical" verses, suggesting its use in some of sort of performance.

Lucia Nadin identifies six such poetic works from 1534 to 1548, including the Barbo poem (but not including the Magno poem, of which she was unaware). The six works make use of similar structures and poetic conceits (including the pageantry elements, such as the ladies bearing particular insignia) and are all linked by shared names, consistent with an ongoing tradition within a particular social circle, as in Pavia. The greatest overlap in names is usually between the pairs of poems that are the closest in time, the highest being 15 surnames that appear in both Pomeran (1534) and Franco (1536). Nadin also notes that at least two of the poets are also known to have been friends.

All of this suggests a similar situation to Pavia: a tradition of events occurring at least semi-regularly, in which a certain group of ladies of high society, all belonging to a particular social circle, would perform some sort of pageantry such as a procession, with a poem being written for the occasion, presumably for recitation during the event.

Given that six such poems are known to survive from the period 1534 to 1548, with various shared features and names connecting them all, it would seem very strange indeed to discover a seventh such work, also sharing features and names with these six in exactly the same way, but from twelve years earlier than the earliest one of those six, and with no other such work known from any time in those intervening twelve
years.

It is therefore far more likely that the Magno poem comes from the same period as the other six, the mid 1530s to the mid 1540s. Such a date would also be consistent with the usual dates of tarocchi appropriati poems of this kind generally: the poems we know from Pavia, Ferrara, and Cesena are all from around that time.

Finally, what is the evidence for the other side of the argument, the earlier date of 1522?

It appears to consist solely in Linda Carroll's belief that the Magno poem can be divided into two sections, the names before Maria Caravello, and the names after her. She thought that the women associated with the trumps higher than Caravello were all the victims of the "tarring incident" in 1522 for which Caravello was punished by the Council of Ten, and all the women lower in the trump order than Caravello were those who had sided with her in the social dispute that led to the tarring incident. There are, however, two significant difficulties with this hypothesis.

First, while the association of Caravello with the Devil certainly fits the hypothesis (and the incident in question could well have contributed to her having such an image in others' eyes), the poem does not concentrate its praise on the first set of women while depicting the second set as less virtuous. Rather, it spreads its praise relatively evenly across all of them, which is not consistent with the idea that it is dividing them into two sides in this way.

Secondly, Carroll was not able to identify all the women with certainty. Some she was not able to identify at all, and in the case of many others, her identification was not certain. I know from my own efforts to identify the women in the Pavia poems that it is maddeningly difficult to find historical records that clearly identify the women mentioned in these poems: 16th century Italy wasn't great at recording the details of women's lives (in many cases, not even their birth or death dates survive) and the difficulty is compounded by the fact that many first names (for both men and women) were quite popular, and tended to be repeated within families. Thus, with the probable exception of Caravello herself, it is quite questionable whether the women in the poem were in fact the same women involved in the tarring incident.

As far as I can see, there is no other evidence to support the 1522 date at all. Consequently, I think we must conclude that the later date range is far more likely to be correct.

Nathaniel wrote: 09 Sep 2026, 17:30
It's a matter of weighing up the evidence for each side of the argument. I'll look first at the evidence in favor of the later date:

There is the Motti poem in Pavia as a likely parallel situation, regarding which, see my posts here: viewtopic.php?t=2207

Thanks for the reminder and link to that.

...
As far as I can see, there is no other evidence to support the 1522 date at all. Consequently, I think we must conclude that the later date range is far more likely to be correct.

You make a very good case, I agree.