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Tarot History Forum - 600 years of history in 78 cards

Re: Bolognese sequence

311
Steve wrote
I'm not convinced that the unique figures of the Sola Busca do, or are meant to, parallel the standard tarot motifs - there are several which can be made with some ease, e.g, fool, stars, sun, moon, tower - but others are very muich a stretch - Huck admits failure to do so in at least 9 of the of the trumps and then makes an absurd allusion to the 9 heros tradition, to which there is also no parallel other than the number 9. Some of his other parallels I find obscure or absurd & and more than a bit of a stretch. For example, it is obscure to me why Falco should be the devil, Ipeo with his bats wings seems more suitable to me,* and it seems absurd to equate him with the Angel for the same reason [and the figures appearing to pray to some winged head on a tree].


Well, the Sola-Busca is a funny object, I hope we can agree on this.

Let's make a little math first. If 22 cards are dealt and 9 are blue and 13 are green, and you get 9 cards, how probable it is, that all are blue?

I think, that it is 1 : (13^9 / 1*2*3*4*5*6*7*8*9) .... maybe I'm wrong, but it is 1 : more than 29.000, that is at least my opinion. 1:29.000 is really a small number, even if the theory has possibly a few errors, which increase the probabilty possibly to 1:500. That would be still an interesting idea.

The thesis is, that the Sola Busca trumps contain 13 relations to 13 trumps+Fool cards, as they appear in the Lucca Tarocchi in early 18th century. Which has the consequence, that something as the Lucca Tarocchi, in reality already existed around 1491 (the time, which is assumed as the production year of the Sola Busca).
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Last edited by Huck on 28 Apr 2025, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Bolognese sequence

312
It seems that the 13-trump Orfeo decks of Lucca were Minchiates.

The nature of this deck was "Unsolved Problems of Playing Card History" no. 10, but it appears to have been solved when somebody noticed that one of Stuart Kaplan's decks that went to auction in 2006 was one of the Orfeo decks:
10. An extraordinary type of Tarot pack, using Minchiate designs for many but not all of the cards, with 56 suit cards, the Matto and only twelve trumps (missing all those below the IX, including of course the Bagatto) appears to have been peculiar to Lucca. For what game was this used?
[March 2012: An incomplete Orfeo pack in Mr. Stuart Kaplan’s collection, that was offered at auction in 2006 (auction catalogue, no. 128), yielded some of the missing trumps, namely: IIII-VI, VIII, XIII, XV, XXII, XXIIII-XXVIII, XXX, XXXIIII. Therefore, it is possible that all Orfeo packs were in fact regular Minchiate packs.]
https://www.i-p-c-s.org/wp/unsolved-problems/

Re: Bolognese sequence

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I've read this, but it isn't convincing
The nature of this deck was "Unsolved Problems of Playing Card History" no. 10, but it appears to have been solved when somebody noticed that one of Stuart Kaplan's decks that went to auction in 2006 was one of the Orfeo decks:
There was a specific Tarockgame in one of the Swiss valleys with a shortened deck. Researchers wondered, where the deck was produced. The simple solution: the players bought full decks asnd reduced the cards, which they didn't need for the game.

Perhaps had the Orfeo-owner in Lucca a similar coperation with a Florentine producer. For instance he might have bougth the missing cards in his own production from a Florentine artist for the case, that he could sell a few Minchiate instead the Lucca decks.
There is the very humble number of probability "1: (a little more than 29.000)" for the same 9 missing cards of 22.

1*2*3*4*5*6*7*8*9 / 13*13*13*13*13*13*13*13*13

And we have the strange relations between Lucca deck and Sola-Busca.
And some coincidence of Beaux-Arts and Rothschild sheets with 12 of 13, recently detected by Magic Moon.
And a Prince Fibbia from Lucca, who invented something with cards in Bologna.
And the fact, that Lucca had a very lucky year in 1369 caused by emperor Karl IV, who arranged, that Lucca got about 400 years of Indepency.

The same Karl IV, about whom the trade researcher F.L.Hübsch wrote in Prag 1849:
Automatic translation:
From Page 242: "A card painter named Jonathan Kraysel from Nuremberg also appears in Prague in 1354. Whether similar artists had previously been in Prague, or whether the playing cards were supplied by the illustrators, cannot be proven diplomatically (Note 278).
The oldest reliable records of the use of playing cards in Bohemia date back to 1340, but documents show that they were used by Polish noblemen as a pastime even earlier. It is also likely that these playing cards, as already noted, were already known in Bohemia under King John, at which time the courtiers in France became acquainted with them. Whether they were made in Bohemia itself at that time and by whom, or whether they were brought to Bohemia by foreign merchants, cannot be determined; suffice it to say, for now, that the first card maker was the artist who came from Nuremberg."

(Note 278) "Among the common games listed by name in the royal prohibitions, and for which educational institutions already existed under King John, there are several whose nature cannot be determined. Dice and balls were among the forbidden; cards among the permitted. To curb the gambling addiction, which was then increasingly prevalent among the younger citizens, Charles decreed that whoever lost at dice should have the right to reclaim their losses for a full three years; indeed, if they failed to exercise this right within the first two months, their closest relatives should be entitled to do so in their place. Severe prison sentences and fines were imposed on all forbidden games. Anyone caught throwing a fake dice lost the thumb of their right hand, but this could be converted into a fine. The clergy zealously opposed gambling. Games permitted were those in which winning and losing did not depend entirely on chance, but rather depended largely on cleverness and reflection."
Karl IV was friendly against playing cards (according Hübsch).
He was in Italy 1368-69 and Franco had found 3 places in Italy which had playing card documents around 1370/71. Portovenere 1370. Buia 1371. Colle del Marchese 1371. https://naibi.net/A/510-PRE1377ITA-Z.pdf .... Franco doesn't say, that Karl IV has something to do with this.
In 1369 (13 trumps/Fool, 69 card totally) Karl IV was a longer time in Lucca and this was very good for Lucca. Well, a strange accident.

Re: Bolognese sequence

314
Ross Caldwell wrote: 28 Apr 2025, 13:08 It seems that the 13-trump Orfeo decks of Lucca were Minchiates.

The nature of this deck was "Unsolved Problems of Playing Card History" no. 10, but it appears to have been solved when somebody noticed that one of Stuart Kaplan's decks that went to auction in 2006 was one of the Orfeo decks:
But the problem remains in that there seems to have been two types of Orfeo decks made in Lucca c1722-1745, one with the standard Minchiate female fante and beastly knights and a range of extent trumps that includes some that are specific to Minchiate, and one with Tarot type pages and knights, and extent trumps for which, though of the Minchiate style, we have only those trumps we find in the Tarot, and of those only the highest 12 trumps [+1] of the Tarot but with Minchiate numbering :

See post by MikeH here:P
viewtopic.php?p=19896#p19896

Re: Bolognese sequence

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Huck wrote: 28 Apr 2025, 10:32
The thesis is, that the Sola Busca trumps contain 13 relations to 13 trumps+Fool cards, as they appear in the Lucca Tarocchi in early 18th century.
IF I were to try and see some relation between the SB trumps and the surviving Lucca Orfeo Tarocchi 12 thrumps + fool then on a superficial glance I would go with something like this:
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Re: Bolognese sequence

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You're rather similar to my solution.
3 relations are different, but you have chosen 11 of 12 pictures. Only Falco is not used, instead you used Hero No. 10 for the wheel. Is this correct, or have I overlooked something?

Re: Bolognese sequence

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Huck wrote,
And some coincidence of Beaux-Arts and Rothschild sheets with 12 of 13, recently detected by Magic Moon.
Just to be clear, I was the source of that idea, at viewtopic.php?p=26812#p26812 (a post of April 1), although I wasn't using it to support Huck's proposal. I wrote:
What does correspond to the Lucca trumps are the two sheets of Bologna trumps in Paris, in the Louvre and Ecole des Beaux Arts. Except that those two sheets lack a Fool, the correspondence with Lucca is exact, and the cards on the sheets are precisely the last 12 trumps of the Bolognese sequence (remembering that early on, the Chariot was above the virtues there, as shown in Croce’s Lotto Festevole in Villa, 1602; also, if 11 of the cards on the sheets are of the last 12, probably so is the 12th). In this case, there are no numbers on the sheets to miscorrespond with Lucca's order, nor additional cards to explain away. This may show a connection between Lucca and Bologna, that they played a similar game (in addition to a more standard one) using just the trumps on the two Bologna woodblocks, attained by removing the others. Such a shortened trump suit might have gone along with a similar shortening of the number cards in Bologna. 21 (trumps):10 (number cards) is roughly equivalent to 12 (trumps):6 (number cards).
I would add now that it is not necessary to suppose that Bologna and Venice were playing a game with only 12 trumps. It might have been that somehow too many of these two sheets had been made in Bologna, with the excess sent to Venice for use in book-binding, and the SB designer, not actually being very familiar with the tarocchi, used their basic imagery in designing 12 of the cards. In that case, no relation to Lucca is needed at all.

Re: Bolognese sequence

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Huck wrote: 29 Apr 2025, 21:23 You're rather similar to my solution.
3 relations are different, but you have chosen 11 of 12 pictures. Only Falco is not used, instead you used Hero No. 10 for the wheel. Is this correct, or have I overlooked something?
I have also not used Panfilo in those, which you use for the wheel. Then there is the question can the remaining 9 cards be related to the remaining standard tarot trumps, and I think that at least some of them can, with some more of a stretch than others. Panfilo I initially thought Bateleur, but being one of four remaining figures with crowns I relate it here tentatively as one of the four crowns/ secular & spiritual powers, Sesto with Love, Metelo for its pillar with fortitude, Tulio as possibly being Cicero with Justice... if just one of these seems as justified as the "certain/probable" 13, then your proposed 13/9 breakdown is surely nullified, and the [to me absurd] numerological speculations you derive from it?
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Re: Bolognese sequence

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Magic Moon wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 20:23
Added later: Steve, now I understand what you're saying about Montieri! It's the order of the numbers printed in 1775, and it's important evidence that this order already existed in 1725. Thanks!
We also have before 1775, from :

Istruzioni necessarie per chi volesse imparare il givoco dilettevole delli tarocchini di Bologna per Ferdinando Pisarri, all'Insegna di S. Antonio, 1754.

Which gives on p.16/17 the sequence of the Trumps of the Taroicchini di Bologna as:

Angelo, Mondo, Sole, Luna, Stella, Saetta, Diavolo, Morte, Traditore, Vecchio, Roda, Forza, Giustizia, Temperanza, Carro, Amore, e quattro Mori li quali non hanno fra loro alcuna precedenza, mal' uno piglia l'altro anteriormente giocati, Bagattino e Matto.

Which is the same order we observe previous to that in Montieri's deck of 1725: & before Montieri we have the same order in the deck by Mitelli, c1677 :
Last edited by SteveM on 30 Apr 2025, 12:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bolognese sequence

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SteveM wrote: 30 Apr 2025, 02:37 I have also not used Panfilo in those, which you use for the wheel. Then there is the question can the remaining 9 cards be related to the remaining standard tarot trumps, and I think that at least some of them can, with some more of a stretch than others. Panfilo I initially thought Bateleur, but being one of four remaining figures with crowns I relate it here tentatively as one of the four crowns/ secular & spiritual powers, Sesto with Love, Metelo for its pillar with fortitude, Tulio as possibly being Cicero with Justice... if just one of these seems as justified as the "certain/probable" 13, then your proposed 13/9 breakdown is surely nullified, and the [to me absurd] numerological speculations you derive from it?
Sorry, I took Postumio for Panfilo. So there are 8 agreements in the relations and only 10 identical figures.
I would accept Metelo as Fortitude, if I could accept pictures of the other 3 cardinal virtues, but I see none.

I could imagine, that the Sola Busca was a mix between the wish to have 22 figures and the possibility, tto reduce the cards to an earlier played trionfi version with 13 trumps (similar to the later Lucca Tarocchi).
The Sola Busca and the Boiardo poem with 22 trumps are the first clear evidence for the later standard deck with 78 cards with 21 trumps and Fool... and both have concepts, which are very far from the from the later standard.
Well, we are used to live with different opinions and so can it be.