Tarot History Forum

Hi Ross
Thank you very much for the explanations. I like that interpretation of the precipice in the floor. I also saw it in an illustration of angels harvesting grapes. I don't know which is the oldest illustration with a precipice of that type. We assume the Visconti Sforza cards aren't the origin of that artistic device, but I'm not sure about that either. Perhaps in some cases the cards promoted that aesthetic trend of a precipice at the bottom edge of the illustration.
Regarding the Sphaerae manuscript, I find it strange that the date was 1470 because that doesn't cover Alfonso d'Este's wedding in 1491. I think it's fair to think that Anna Sforza took the manuscript from Milan to Ferrara, as Ross says. That page painted in 1464 with the same coat of arms and the dragon and the Este ring is interesting. I'm unaware of any marriages between the Estes and the Visconti-Sforzas in 1464. So I assume Francesco Sforza commissioned both books with those coats of arms out of sympathy for the Estes, since he lived with them as a child, as I said. This Bagatto in Sphaerae was probably painted before the Bagatto, Son of the Moon, engraved by Baldini. That is, the Bagatto table was square in early representations (except for one by Georg Pencz, which has a round table), and then Baldini innovated with the round table and the hat and jester-like appearance in the Bagatto, which was incorporated into the first Minchiate deck around 1466. It is difficult to prove these details but I think this hypothesis makes sense. Right? Thanks, Ross.

Hi, Huck.
Thanks for the reply. You are right that it is normal for Sola Busca to have exactly the 13 trumps of the Lucca Tarot, but I don’t think that the separation into two groups of six cards that there are in Sola Busca (as you have discovered) and in Rothschild-Arts (it is right: Kaplan I, pages 128 and 129) is a coincidence. The separation into two groups of six cards is the same in Sola Busca and in Rothschild-Arts (BAR). This is not a coincidence. It look that there were two groups. That is, early Lucca Tarot had 6 celestial cards and 6 earthly cards. Later, Lucca Tarot was played with those thirteen cards taken from the Early Minchiate (XVII century) like Huck say. But I believe that in Rothschild-Arts we already see that game Lucca Tarot, which perhaps did not have a single linear hierarchy but early had two groups because in Sola Busca the same two original groups of cards are reflected. That is, Sola Busca already proposes a linear sequence (printed Roman numerals) but we can still see the original groups that Huck describes.
We might think that Rothschild-Arts had more trumps that have been lost, but the upper 12 are preserved in an apparently disordered order, and it is unlikely that the upper 12 trumps were together in two sheets if all the trumps were disordered. The twelve that are preserved are the upper 12, but they are mixed up on both sheets, so the lower 12 would have to be mixed up with the upper 12 if the lower 12 existed when that deck was produced. I believe that the lower 12 did not exist in that deck, although they did exist in the Minchiate (1466) from Florence and in the Visconti Sforza. Incidentally, the Minchiate from Florence still had a total of 20 trumps, or perhaps 21 or 22 allegorical cards, but it did not yet have 20 Germini trumps added. However, Rothschild-Arts was produced with only 12 trumps. That's how I see it. I think that my point of view is similar to Huck. By the way, it would be good to know what order the trumps were in the Florentine Tarot (XVI century) because perhaps it was a different order than Germini and different than Tarocchino.

Thanks!

Magic,
we have the word Minchiate in 1466, but not a guarantee, that it already had the later Minchiate structure with 41 special cards and 56 suit cards ...

Well, for the better overview :

The double six cards according Beaux-Art and Rothschild ...

............ Beaux Art ......................................Rothschild ........
Sun - World - Hanged Man ............. Tower - Star - Moon ........ upper Group with 6
Wheel - Angel - Time ....................... Devil - Chariot (!) - Death ........ lower Group with 6

.................. 21 .............
... 20 - 16 - 12 - 8 - 4 ...
--9 Heroes + Chariot ------------- Sola-Busca numbers
... 17 - 13 - 9 - 5 - 1 ......
.................. 0 .................

......................... World ................................
Tower - Sun - Moon - Hanged Man - Star
-------------- 9 Heroes + Chariot ---------------------------- Sola-Busca Names
--- Angel - Death - Devil -Time - Wheel ----
........................... Fool ...................................

Well, I see, that it is possibly better to give the Chariot to the lower place of the Fool and move the Fool in the middle to the heroes. Then the lowest trump (chariot) is at the bottom and the highest trump (World) is at the top. And the Fool is simply inside-outside in the game.

......................... World ................................
Tower - Sun - Moon - Hanged Man - Star
-------------- 9 Heroes + Fool ---------------------------- Sola-Busca Names
--- Angel - Death - Devil -Time - Wheel ----
......................... Chariot ...............................

Then we have , that World gets the central place in the top group of Beaux-Art and the Chariot gets the central place in the bottom group of Rothschild.
This one could possibly regard as part of a system.

............ Beaux Art ......................................Rothschild ........
Sun - World - Hanged Man ............. Tower - Star - Moon ........ upper Group with 6
Wheel - Angel - Time ....................... Devil - Chariot (!) - Death ........ lower Group with 6

Well, it's good, that you found these 12 cards, I haven't thought about them.

Hi Huck

I'm glad we understand each other now. That's exactly what I was trying to say about Minchiate in 1466. Surely the first Minchiate deck was similar to what they later called Tarot. I suppose there were only 20 trumps in the first Minchiate of 1466. I think there possibly wasn't a Fool or a Devil. I have doubts about this. I think there was a Rook, a Pope, and a Popess, although the Visconti Sforza perhaps didn't have a Rook, and although the Popess was later eliminated in Strambotto (1500?) and Germini (1506). I think there was a Bagatto in the first Minchiate, like the Bagatto we see in Rosenwald, which resembles Baldini's engraving of the moon. It's possible that Rosenwald is a Bolognese production of the first Minchiate, but with printed numbers. You've talked about this elsewhere.
You say that in BAR there seems to be a system because the Chariot and the World are in the middle of the sheet. It's true that there seems to be a system. I observe it when following the order of your interpretation of Sola Busca in comparison to BAR (Rothschild-Arts). There is a pattern, but I don't know its origin or logic. It's difficult to explain the pattern, but it's something like left, right on one sheet, left, right on the other sheet, center on one sheet, and center on the other sheet. I don't understand it, but it's not a total mess. We can talk about double cards or pairs of cards, but these pairs are different in Sola Busca and in BAR. That's why I don't talk about pairs. But there are clearly two groups, as you have seen. The Hanged Man in BAR belongs to the upper group, which has a celestial theme (luminaries). This seems strange. The Hanged Man's partner is the Hermit in BAR. Perhaps you thought that the Hanged Man has his feet in the sky and that the Hermit is drawn to the ground, walking slowly with a hump on crutches. That is, abstractly, the Hanged Man can be associated with heaven and the Hermit with earth.
By the way, your structure can be understood as four quintets based on the four Latin suits. I'm not saying there's a thematic connection with each suit, but your structure has four groups of five cards. Perhaps originally, there were four groups of trumps based on the four suits. Have you thought about that?
We're having difficulty understanding the position of the Chariot in Sola Busca. You swap the Chariot and the Fool. I thought maybe we weren't allowed to change that, but now I understand. You think maybe the Chariot was previously at number 0 and the Fool was at number 7. I'll have to think about that. It seems strange to me, but it could be correct. I am not sure.

My point of view is as follows. The order of Sola Busca (considering your groups of five cards) resembles the order of the Tarocchino Bolognese, which we've known since 1775 (printed numbers). That is, the Chariot is the card following Love, but it's below the three virtues. In your Sola Busca scheme, there's room for Love below the Chariot and for the three virtues above it. You don't see a correspondence between those four trumps and the heroes of the Sola Busca quintet where the Chariot is, but the order is compatible. I'm sorry if my explanation isn't clear. So, I'd have to explain myself visually. I still haven't found the attachments in this forum's edition to post photographs I have saved in my phone's storage. I don't have a perfect solution, but I think perhaps the structure was symmetrical with a center, that is, two paths of ten cards leading to heaven. Perhaps I can explain it better in a PDF. I'm not sure what I'm saying is a good idea. I think perhaps that type of structure with a center existed, but I haven't read any authors talking about it.

However, the two BAR sheets are the upper half-sequence of the tarot, obtained when the Chariot was separated from Love, above the three virtues, as in the poems we call Strambotto (1500?) and Croce (1602). So it seems that the Chariot was next to Love in Sola Busca (Lombardy) as in current Tarocchino (1775) and as it survived later in the Type C tradition (Lombardy) but still with the virtues together as in Type A. However, BAR (Bologna) had the Chariot separated higher than Love as in early Bolognese Tarocchino (1500, 1602).

Hi Ross

I've been thinking about your explanation about Roberta del Moro's opinion. She says that a Bon family from Venice had the coat of arms painted on the Ace of Coins in the Visconti Pierpont deck. You say that family came from Bologna. And you say that another Bon family from Venice (the architect Bartolomeo Bon belonged to that family) didn't come from Bologna. Did Bartolomeo Bon's family have a coat of arms different from the one on the Ace of Coins? Perhaps there were several Bon families with the same Ace of Coins coat of arms, but if they were different coats of arms, then Roberta's claim is solid.
By the way, I like your observation about Francesco Sforza's constructions in Venice. I didn't know he had built in Venice. The construction of the Venetian palace in Venice in 1458 most certainly means that at that time he had more contacts in Venice and an emotional connection to Venice, which may be reflected in the Visconti Sforza deck.

Thank you!

Magic Moon wrote: 23 Apr 2025, 18:40
My point of view is as follows. The order of Sola Busca (considering your groups of five cards) resembles the order of the Tarocchino Bolognese, which we've known since 1775 (printed numbers).

I don't see any good reason to think the Sola Busca follows the Bolognese order, I struggle to follow Huck's reasoning, as I far as I follow it seems absurd to me. The Bolognese order surely we know from before 1775? IDoes it not appear in one of the 16th century Tarocchi Appropriati or other source? It is also ciphered in the 1725 Luigi Montieri deck for example, the order appears when you place the cards by their letters of the designers name:

Magic wrote ...

So, I'd have to explain myself visually. I still haven't found the attachments in this forum's edition to post photographs I have saved in my phone's storage.

In the editor for a post, that you will do, you find below the "Submit" button ...
the names
"Options" and "Attachments" in one line ..... you have to press the button "Attachments"

Then .... "If you wish to attach one or more files enter the details below. You may also attach files by dragging and dropping them in the message box." and a button "Add Files"

Then you must experiment, what works for you. I'm not especially the expert for these attachments.

Steve wrote ...

"I don't see any good reason to think the Sola Busca follows the Bolognese order, I struggle to follow Huck's reasoning, as I far as I follow it seems absurd to me. "

Steve,
Magic and me talked mainly about a relationship between Lucca Tarocchi, Sola-Busca Tarocchi and Rothschild/Beaux-Arts. (Kaplan Page 128/129)
The Lucca Tarocchi (which is probably from around 1725) and the Sola-Busca Tarocchi (given to 1491) exist a strong relationship, in which Magic and me agree.

Lucca Tarocchi has 12 trumps and a Fool and 56 small arcana.
Sola Busca has 21 trumps, a Fool and 56 small arcana. From the 21 trumps are 12 relatable to the trumps of the Lucca Tarocchi. The Fool is also relatable between the both groups. 9 of 22 heroes of the Sola Buca are NOT relatable to the usual Tarot motifs.

Further there are 6 cards from Rothschild and 6 cards from Beaux-Arts, which together also contain the same 12 trump motifs, which appear in Sola Busca and Lucca Tarocchi.

From my site there is a connection between Bologna and the 3 above mentioned sources by the story of Prince Fibbia (came from Lucca) , who is part of a legend, that the Prince made some improvements in the Bolognese card game.
Further there is a relationship between the Lucca Tarocchi (69 cards totally, of these are 12 trumps and there is 1 Fool) and the PMB-1, which according the 5x14-theory had 70 cards totally (from these are 13 trumps and 1 is a Fool). There is a simple relationship by similar numbers.

Added later: Steve, now I understand what you're saying about Montieri! It's the order of the numbers printed in 1775, and it's important evidence that this order already existed in 1725. Thanks!

*******

Nice to meet you, Steve. It's perfectly fine to decline what we're discussing, but I'll try to respond so it's clearer. Thanks, Huck, for the explanation about attaching images. After writing this, I'll try to attach some images, and if necessary, I'll be able to prepare a diagram of the two 10-card sequences I mentioned, so Huck's proposal can also be understood. By the way, I'm basing this on an explanatory diagram I received by email while the bots were attacking us, and it might be difficult to understand the issue if that diagram isn't posted on this forum. I've prepared my own edition of the same diagram with two-sequence numbering.

STEVE

We're not discussing the Sola Busca order indicated by the Roman numerals printed on the Sola Busca cards. We're interpreting a structure of four groups of five cards that arises by placing the sequence of Sola Busca numbers into four groups, as if we were dealing cards to four people or as if the trumps were in four suits. If the structure Huck observed is accurate, then I understand that the creator of Sola Busca was based on an order (sequence or structure) that possibly existed in Milan at that time. That order perhaps included the virtues between Love and the Chariot (as occurs in the early Bolognese Tarocchino), as I understand from studying Huck's scheme for Sola Busca. However, the World surpasses the Angel, which doesn't seem Bolognese but Lombard. I think that at that time (1491) the order we call Type C (Marseilles) didn't yet exist, and I think that perhaps in Milan they played trump cards with a sequence similar to that found in Bologna or in the early Minchiate of Florence.
Regarding the Bolognese Tarocchino, you ask good questions. A poem written by Croce in 1602 reflects a Bolognese order with the Chariot above the three virtues. However, the Bolognese Tarot since 1775 has printed numbers that place the Chariot under the virtues, with Love. The Chariot is next to Love in Huck's Sola Busca scheme, in my interpretation, since there is a card (a Roman hero) below the Chariot in one of the four quintets Huck looks at. The Chariot is also above Love in the Type B and Type C tarots. Mikeh and Ross think that Croce's order is older than the order reflected by the numbers since 1775. I had doubts about this but now accept it. In any case, I have difficulty understanding why the Chariot was lowered in 1775. Perhaps this was influenced by the Type C Tarot. I've thought that perhaps the Chariot was featured alongside Love in an early Bolognese tarot, before 1490, but I think that the tarot's specific structure (21 trumps plus the Fool) didn't originate in Bologna, where the closest thing to a tarot from that period might be the Rosenwald deck, which doesn't have the Fool. I'm familiar with Pratesi's theory of the fourth sheet, but it's possible that the supposed fourth sheet didn't have the Fool either, but rather the Queen of Clubs. I have a slightly different opinion, which I prefer to the fourth sheet. In any case, the Rosenwald deck (which could be from Florence, but now I think it was from Bologna) isn't exactly a Bolognese tarot before 1490, but rather a later one. The designs could date back to before 1501, but there is no Fool, so I believe that Rosenwald is a Bolognese attempt to accept all those trumps after Bologna was playing with only 12 trumps around 1490, according to the only evidence of BAR (two sheets preserved at Rothschild and at Bellas Artes). In short, it is possible that there was no early Bolognese tarot, but only decks with 12 or 21 trumps, withowt Fool. It seems that the Fool possibly arrived in Bologna later (1515) with a drum. therefore, I believe it is true that Croce's order is the one that the Bolognese Tarocchino had from its inception around the year 1515. in any case, the cards were not numbered, so possibly there were players who followed an order with the Chariot next to Love. other players followed an order influenced by the Minchiate of Florence and by the Florentine Tarot, which I suppose also had the Chariot next to Love, as in Strambotto, where the High Priestess had already been eliminated in transition to Germini or because the Devil had been inserted, which is a complicated card also to debate. based on Huck's suspicions, I have a doubt: perhaps the Falconer (Rosenthal imitating cards from Milan) was replaced by the Devil (recorded in BAR of Bologna and in Ludo cum Aliis) or perhaps the Devil was replaced in Milan by the Falconer. I suppose Ludo cum Aliis (1490-1500) is not much earlier than 1502, because I observe: the tarot was called Tarot in 1502, but that structure already existed in Ludo cum Aliis, where it is not yet called Tarot but rather the game of trumps. It's complex to talk about so many confusing things at once, but this is my view now.
As for the disordered order of the Tarocchino Montieri, perhaps it was an order that was used to play, but when I saw it, it seemed too chaotic. I don't know if we can now see similarities between the Montieri number sequence and BAR. I'll try to look into it.

Huck, i remember (right?) that Sylvia Mann wrote that she think probably Lucca Tarot was XVIII century or XVII century. It is nice XVII (1600-1700). By the way, Sylvia Mann was German, but I assume she was living in England when she founded the PCS association. Did she live in England? Thanks

Please. Anybody knows the sizes and color of back in Rosenthal cards? There are color pictures in 2016!

Oh, nice! I find attachments! This picture is about Ross conversation. The original image is in Albertina de Viena (I dont know the year and author)

Magic Moon wrote: 23 Apr 2025, 18:40
My point of view is as follows. The order of Sola Busca (considering your groups of five cards) resembles the order of the Tarocchino Bolognese,

I'm not convinced that the unique figures of the Sola Busca do, or are meant to, parallel the standard tarot motifs - there are several which can be made with some ease, e.g, fool, stars, sun, moon, tower - but others are very much a stretch Some of Huck'sr parallels I find obscure or absurd. For example, it is obscure to me why Falco should be the devil, Ipeo with his bats wings seems more suitable to me,* and it seems absurd to equate him with the Angel for the same reason [and the figures appearing to pray to some winged head on a tree]. Also if there is a relation to one of the three patterns A, B or C then the Sola-Busca's seeming connection with Ferrara & Venice would make the Justice high 'B' order more likely, as in the Venetian tarocchi appropriati c1520 :

Mondo: Isabeta Diedo*
Giustitia: Paola VENIER
Angelo: Isabetta Barbarigo
Sole: Cecilia Dandolo
Luna: Andriana Pesaro
Stella: Lucretia VENIER
Foco: Elena Zane
Diavolo: Maria Caravello
Morte: little Quirini
Traditore: Marieta Capello
Tempo: Lucieta Soranza
Rota: Marina Emo
Forteza: Fontana di Barozi
Amore: Bianca Grimani
Caro Triompha;: Laureta Foscari
Temperantia: Maria Lion
Papa: Maria da Leze
Imperator: Isabeta VENIER
Papessa: Marieta Bibbiena
Imperatrice: Hieronima VENIER
Bagatela: Helena Zen
Mato: Laura Cocho

Of which note that it includes four members of the Venier family, whose family coat of arms appears in the Sola Busca.

*For Ipeo as Devil, see post by Ross here:

viewtopic.php?p=10595#p10595

Hi Steve

What is the logic in Star card (Sola Busca Huck equivalences)? There is another card with a star but usually we think ithis card is the death.

Steve, what is the poem with Venier persons that you published? Do you have the author or name or any link?

Thanks

Magic Moon wrote: 28 Apr 2025, 02:06 Hi Steve

What is the logic in Star card (Sola Busca Huck equivalences)? There is another card with a star but usually we think ithis card is the death.

Mario IV has the sphere of stars in the top left corner. Catone has the number XIII going for it to associate it with death, also the head on the ground as with the body parts [heads, hands & feet] we find in the Tarot de Marseille Style death. The "Star" on the card is actually a comet [of the type called a bearded star],* and it was added by the painter & is not in the B&W engraved print.

Steve, what is the poem with Venier persons that you published? Do you have the author or name or any link?

See my posts here:

viewtopic.php?p=17004#p17004

& here:

viewtopic.php?p=17057#p17057


* There was a comet of the type "Bearded Star" in 1472, upon which Angelo Catone wrote a treaties called "Pogonius" (the bearded star), which he interpreted as a forewarning of the coming successes of the Turks, and need for Christendom to unite against them. His cry against the Turks reflects the cry of Cato the Elder against the Carthagians: it is said he ended all his debates with the phrase delenda est Carthago, Carthage must be destroyed.

Catóne Angelo (Sepino or Benevento, Circa 1440 - 1496) was an astronomer, doctor, bibliophile and public reader of philosophy and astronomy in the Studium parthenopeo since its reopening in 1465 to 1495.

Recognized as a true authority in astronomy and medicine, he enjoyed the personal esteem of Ferdinand I of Aragon and later of the French court. Left widowed, in 1482 he was made archbishop of Vienne, the French town of the present-day Isère department.

He was also editor, critic and co-author of some important manuscripts and astrological and medical prints. His book on the comet that appeared in 1472 was printed by Riessinger in Naples. In 1474 he also published a work written by Matteo Silvatico (Salerno, 1285 - 1342), a physician of Roberto d'Angiò, one of the first books printed in the kingdom, titled Pandectae medicinae, gray opus pandectarum medicinae Matthaei Silvatici. In the same year is coauthor, perhaps along with Antonio Guarnieri, of a Tractatus de Febribus, who left Naples for the types of Bertholdus Rihing. He is mentioned in the Mémoires of Philippe de Commynes or Filippo de Commines (Flanders, Belgium 1447 - Argenton-les-Vallés, 18.10.1511), a French historian and chronicler of Flemish origin, of whom he was a great friend.

In the documents the name is given in several variants, such as Angelo Catho de Supino, Angelo Cato or Angelus Cato, Angelus Chatto (and de Supino).

A Via Angelo Catone is in the historic center of Benevento, while Sepino is named the main street of the village.

SteveM