Tarot History Forum

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: There are also numbers on the Catania and Este cards. The Catania numbers are consistent with the Charles VI, which is not surprising since it looks like the same workshop made them. The Este cards are consistent with both the B and A orders, since the Sun is numbered "18".

Well, the numbers at the d'Este cards ...


This is 0 the Fool


This is 1 the Magician


This is 5 the Pope


This is Temperance


This is 16 the Star


This is 17 the Moon


This is 18 the Sun


This is 21 the World

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The Ursino cards


21 World ... nothing, understandable, if we assume an "unnumbered trump"


Temperance ... nothing, although it should have a number


11 Hermit ... the 11 seems very clear


10 Chariot ... the 10, not as good recognizable in the same way, is marked at the same place

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Huck wrote:

This is 21 the World

I can see how it could be read as "21" - never saw it before.

This would confirm it is the B order of Ferrara, as we might expect. Sun (18), Angel (19), Justice (20), World (21).

Thanks!

I've only the pictures of the Bibliotheque nationale ... the resolution is relative small. Perhaps somebody else has better pictures.


Fool
nothing, might be cut off


Emperor
(a sort of 4 ?)


Pope
nothing, might be cut off


Love
might be "V", so 5, but the otherwise used writing is broken


VI Temperance
looks like 6 in comparison to 7 and 8


Fortitudo
looks like 7 in comparison to 6 and 8


VIII Justice
looks like 8 in comparison to 7 and 6


X Chariot
A very strange 10, but a little bit similar to card 21


XI Hermit
strange (11 ?)




XII Hanging Man
The writing is at the bottom, perhaps a sign, that this additional later numbering was not done in Italy.
A 12 with difficulties


XIII Death
A 13 (?), if seen in context 11, 12, 13


XV Tower
one sees a "V", maybe the rest of a XV


Moon
is shorter than at 19 sun


Sun
is longer than at 18 moon


Judgment
strange


World
strange

The Charles VI Hanged Man is numbered upside down, at his head, not his feet.

I'm sorry I don't have any better resolutions either.

The conclusions for the Charles VI and Catania cards are what we would expect from the iconography - they follow an A order.

The Este cards follow a B order, which is identified with Ferrara and the NE of Italy (Steele Sermon, Metropolitan/Budapest museums' sheets).

Neither of these is surprising.

The only mystery is what order the Visconti and Sforza cards followed. None of them, not even their copies, are numbered. We presume C, but which C? (the only significant differences would be the placement of the "Old Man" or Hermit, which Alciato puts just above the Wheel of Fortune (corresponding to A and B), and the placement of the Chariot, which Alciato puts just below the Wheel of Fortune).

I daresay this has been settled before today, but I have to ask: Surely all of those numbers have been added at a date later than the creation of the cards? Except for the Chariot's 'cross', they look like ink rather than paint, and the artist would have integrated them properly into the design. How is it possible to tell when?

Pen

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:

Huck wrote:

This is 21 the World

I can see how it could be read as "21" - never saw it before.

This would confirm it is the B order of Ferrara, as we might expect. Sun (18), Angel (19), Justice (20), World (21).

Thanks!

Yes, I saw this, too.

At card 16, star, a 16 might be identified, if we consider a later tackhole. The 6 of the 16 looks half destroyed.



At the card of Temperance we see a rest writing above the tackhole, possibly the tackhole took the rest of the number.



But all numberings are in the manner, that one might suspect the state of "later added". The most clear is the 10 + 11 at Alessandro Sforza, but the number at Temperance is missing.

Huck wrote:
But all numberings are in the manner, that one might suspect the state of "later added". The most clear is the 10 + 11 at Alessandro Sforza, but the number at Temperance is missing.

I think they were added later. But they correspond to the order - A or B - of the provenance of the cards. This only confirms that when the numbers were written on, the cards were still in the region for which/in which they were made.

Sometimes wrong numbers were put on cards, like on the Alla Torre Bolognese cards of the 17th century in the Bibliothèque nationale. Somebody numbered all the cards as if they were in the Tarot de Marseille order.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I think they were added later. But they correspond to the order - A or B - of the provenance of the cards. This only confirms that when the numbers were written on, the cards were still in the region for which/in which they were made.

Sometimes wrong numbers were put on cards, like on the Alla Torre Bolognese cards of the 17th century in the Bibliothèque nationale. Somebody numbered all the cards as if they were in the Tarot de Marseille order.

I'm not sure, that I'm right, but the circumstance, that the Hanging Man was numbered in a wrong way, might indicate, that the numbering was made in France. Florence had a strong influence in France, I don't have problems with the idea, that a French visitor in Florence gave information to the numbering.

Huck wrote: I'm not sure, that I'm right, but the circumstance, that the Hanging Man was numbered in a wrong way, might indicate, that the numbering was made in France. Florence had a strong influence in France, I don't have problems with the idea, that a French visitor in Florence gave information to the numbering.

The Visconti-Sforza Hanged Man has tack-holes both top and bottom - the only card that has it that way. That means that at some point, somebody had it tacked upside-down.

I interpret it to mean that for both the Visconti-Sforza and Charles VI, somebody didn't like a hanged man. They wanted him standing.