Why, in the Ercole d'Este deck, the trionfi of star, moon and sun are not in relationship with il salone dei mesi or Manilius?
I am confused whit this...
mmfilesi wrote:Hi friends!
Why, in the Ercole d'Este deck, the trionfi of star, moon and sun are not in relationship with il salone dei mesi or Manilius?
I am confused whit this...

I dont understand this:he card of the Tarot of Ercole I d’ Este (figure 5) represents Diogenes seated in his barrel while talking with a young man, presumably Alexander the Great. The image refers to the Biblical teaching mentioned in the Book of Ecclesiastes (1:12, 17), that is that everything that happens under the Sun is vanity, even the thoughts of the wise (2:12, 7). The same teaching is to be found in the card of the Sun of the Paris Tarot by an anonymous author of the 17th century, where a woman looks at a mirror held by a monkey's hand (figure 6). When there is no consciousness that the research of beauty is vane, human nature gets down at the same level of the animal one. The men should remeber that “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Ecclesiastes 3:20).
Please, Huck, can you explain this? I am very interesting.and the sun shows the scene between Alexander and Diogenes, so "philosophy against war" ...
No ... in the case of the Medici deck Toscanelli was very near (cause he worked for the Medici) and Regiomontanus once might have been a "big visit". At least both wrote letters to each other. Cosimo in any case had information about it. The physiognomy of Toscanelli was very remarkable and the left person has stronger similarity, although Toscanelli probably wasn't thick. Regiomontanus (right figure) looks a little bit like the common engraving from him ... at least similar hat.
I interpret the picture this way, that's the explanation ... others might interpret different, and the reality might be also different. Did you read Momus meanwhile (or the description) ...3. Diogenes et Alexander..
I dont understand this:
Please, Huck, can you explain this? I am very interesting.and the sun shows the scene between Alexander and Diogenes, so "philosophy against war" ...
Because Lucian is imitating pretty obviously the symposia of Plato and Xenophon in the opening scene, he gives a tip-o-the-hat to these authors at the beginning of his account of an evening which is going to be very different from Agathon's swank victory celebration. The guests at Lucian's symposium are a mix of posh society types and professors from the mainstream sects. There's a Platonist in attendance, also a Stoic, an Epicurean, an Aristotelian; and then there's Alcidamas, the Cynic, who behaves in a very impulsive manner: he crashes the gate, teases and badgers the other guests, strolls around the dining room eating and drinking whatever he likes, sits and lies on the floor, goes off half-cocked at the slightest provocation and must be placated from time to time with pastry and booze, exposes himself and urinates in front of the ladies, and feels up the musician when the lights go out. In literary terms, Alcidamas is something of a stock character; figures very like him wander through the banquets of Athenaeus, Alciphron and Macrobius, as Cynics acting out an extended etymological gag.8 To get Lucian's gag the reader is going to have to be familiar with Diogenes Laertius or will need to be fortified with substantial notes.
... .-) there is really not much need for a MUST of a crab, which appeared in Marseille Tarot nearly 200 years later ... this fixation at specific iconography styles is superfluous and disturbs the realistic view necessary for research.. These decks were made to have some fun with a game. Although these special versions for rich people were expensive, they were in comparison to other objects of art NOT SO expensive ... for these rather rich persons. Small art, not so important.Well... In any case, I dont see Manilius or Schifanoia in this cards.
If we asume this date is correct "not done before 1473" (and I think is correct), is stange. We have a Maniliusmania in Ferrara, at since, 1469. But the discourse of the cards is astronomy, not astrology. In Cary Sheet, for example, we have a crab ... There's nothing here. Only scientists ... Where is the Salone dei Mesi?
I am confused for for the absence. Is the same case with Petrarch ... Why not talk about chess? Why are not astrological signs in the tarot of Ercole d'Este?
Ok. I understand. I reserve my doubts by the the turban.in the case of the Medici deck Toscanelli was very near...
?Why should the Ferrarese paint Regiomontanus
Yes I totally agree with this.I think that the d'Este card star is meant to show "confused astrologs" with not precise technique.
Did you read Momus meanwhile (
Yes. I know him. I love it.and Lucian is a very special writer.
Perfect. Thanks friend. I go to read Momus and then I can answer.... is rather funny. Alberti got Lucian texts from Guarino. Guarino was the "dominant teach
Yes, yes I know... But I think in the crab of Salone dei Mesi, not in crab of Cary Sheet. This is an example crab. Well. You and me see the world cup and we joked about Paul. If after 20 years you and me speack about octopus, we think Paul. I cant believe after the Salone dei Mesi in the Este court they can talk about astronomy, whitout astrology.there is really not much need for a MUST of a crab, which appeared in Marseille Tarot nearly 200 years later ... this fixation at specific iconography styles is superfluous
I assume, that "jocke" = "joke".mmfilesi wrote:?Why should the Ferrarese paint Regiomontanus
I dont know yet. I need to know more about astronomy in Ferrara in 1470. In any case, it seem a jocke about the Moon in the Medici's deck?

Thank you dear friend!thers might interpret different, and the reality might be also different. Did you read Momus meanwhile (or the description)
I assume, that "jocke" = "joke".
Yes, yes... I knew and I share much of this hypothesis yours, but I believe in a longer period: 1461-1465 <-why?In my idea of the Charles VI. deck it was made for Lorenzo de Medici in 1463, with Lorenzo getting 14 years old (
Interesting observation. Yes.In 1463-1464 death strucks in the family for 3 times. Uncle, cousin and grand-father Cosimo die.
Probably with the collaboration of Francesco Sforza, I suspect.Ferrante killed Jacopo Piccinino in Naples
Well ...Well, the hypothesis goes, that in this time Lorenzo made something, which caused the existence of the 6 cards,
The festivities in Florence suffered from some fears about a near plague
Diogenes is a "funny" philosoph. But the "funny antique author" is Lucian ... the distribution of Lucian's writings during 15th century is a key observation ... and it follows later the German/English Lucian reception ... with the somehow German Fool explosion, which produces the phenomenon, that Sebastian Brant's "Ship of the Fools", which quickly becomes international literature, and for the German region the "one bestselling book" till Goethe's Werther (from 1775, which would mean a 200 years reign of the "Ship of the Fools" ... something like "Harry Potter").mmfilesi wrote:
Yes, may be++. Momo's speech in the second chapter is very clear here. I also find interesting your assumptions about Momo and the Fool in this deck. We need more documents about Diogenes in Ferrara about 1470. Another pictorial or literary documents we can compare.
I don't know. I would think, that we don't know enough about the d'Este cards. There's not not enough information. Also there are at least 10 years between the productions.... Its a joke made in Ercole deck against Medici deck. I try:
a) In Medici deck the have two astronomers pride.
b) I assume in Ferrara know the Medici's deck.
c) Florence is cultural rival of Ferrara.
d) Ercole laughs a little about the deck of Florence. Your astronomers dont have instruments ... ha, ha, ha ... are a bit uselessWe really know about astronomy...
I would think, that Piero was too serious and didn't waste his time. Also I would think, that most elder Florentine in this period didn't play cards ... they still knew the prohibitive phase, partly they had organized it themselvers. They allowed it, as there was some pressure of the youth and of lower classes, the "general change of time".1)Yes, yes... I knew and I share much of this hypothesis yours, but I believe in a longer period: 1461-1465 <-why?In my idea of the Charles VI. deck it was made for Lorenzo de Medici in 1463, with Lorenzo getting 14 years old (
Piero could not walk. It's a good reason to play cards.We dont know if the deck was made to Piero or Lorenzo or Lucrezia Tornabuoni. We have the note of Pulci, but is not enough. In Spanish we have a expression: Its a requirement necessary but is not sufficient. In any case, I think this line of research open by you is correct.
The six cards look 3x the same "not too good looking woman", 1x a man with lion = Hercules, twice there are putti.4.Well ...Well, the hypothesis goes, that in this time Lorenzo made something, which caused the existence of the 6 cards,
We have these data:
a) The cards were painted quickly or by a bad artist.
b) Why they accepted a badly painted cards? They were a gift?
c) In the triumphs of the Star (pregnant) - Moon (virgin) - Sun (child) something sounds like a wedding ...
d) Interestingly this element. Vitali:
In the illuminated card of the Triumphs of Francesco Sforza the Sun is shown as a youth with wings [...] The youth is virtually naked; on his neck, he wears a coral necklace, a reference to the dry heat of the Sun based on the theory of humours. Identical necklaces can be found, in Medieval and Renaissance art, on the necks or wrists of children as talismans against the plague.
Maybe its relationship with:The festivities in Florence suffered from some fears about a near plague
Please, can you said me where I can find this documents in Trionfi? I need this.Borso 8 years before, when Galeazzo Maria (13 years old) visited Ferrara, acted this way:
First action: He ordered 2 card decks, gilded, worthwhile, 70 cards.
Second action (Galeazzo stayed six weeks): He bought colors from Gherardo Vicenza , and had a page paint Trionfi cards. The reason is unknown, but counting with 2-3 fingers let's us imagine, that the page, likely a boy in a similar age like Galeazzo, painted a few cards for Galeazzo. Naturally Borso could have ordered Gherardo Vicenza to paint a few more, but this was obviously not the intention. Not the quality of the final result was deciding, but that the boys had a little fun creating Trionfi cards
Yes, yes, I agree. In Ferrara folly and "homeless" and satire are breathing, great sumary of the situation... but after, in century XVI or XVII (I dont know the date exactly), in general, Diogenes became a """"saint""""."Diogenes" is only a funny philosoph, who didn't write. Pulci ("Morgante") - Boiardo (called best Italian author of second half of 15th century, most famous work "Orlando innamoroto") - Ariost ("Orlando Furioso", called the great Italian work of 16th century) is the serious and great Italian Fool literature. Something, what the Spaniards have in their Don Quixote ...
Ercole got the Morgante early (in 1474), Boiardo started to write soon later and Ariost was also from Ferrara ...... so, what do you search? That's a very clear and very popular (and Ferrarese) line.
Yes... of course... I dont search a lonesome astrological book... Precisely I dont understand why dont exist this book.You needn't to look for a lonesome astrological book as the major factor of a Tarot development in secrecy ...