Tarot History Forum

1-Haven t LE BATELEVR and the figure of XXI card a wand ?
2-Aren t LE MAT unnumbered ? / Could it mean that he hasn t any place,so he isn t within the card sequence ?
You number something to place related to others.
Isn t it ?

eugim

EUGIM wrote:1-Haven t LE BATELEVR and the figure of XXI card a wand ?

So?

Haven't Strength and World both a Lion? Haven't Bateleur and Strength both a hat? Haven't the Empress, Emperor, and World a cross on their scepter? Don't Temperance and the Star hold two mugs? The lists could go on and on. The baton IS the defining object for the Bateleur, it's not for the figure in the World.

EUGIM wrote:2-Aren t LE MAT unnumbered ? / Could it mean that he hasn t any place,so he isn t within the card sequence ?
You number something to place related to others.
Isn t it ?
eugim

Le Mat is unnumbered because he was not one of the 21 Trumps. He is outside of the Trump order.

Well,well,welll ...

-Things seems to gone "wild " here ...

eugim ;)

EUGIM wrote:Well,well,welll ...

-Things seems to gone "wild " here ...

eugim ;)

LOL!

Well, it does help to keep in mind the game doesn't it? What I do find odd is that the Bateleur is worth something. I wonder what could be made of that?

According to this site:
http://www.pagat.com/tarot/frtarot.html

"Three cards, the 1 of trump (called the petit), the 21 of trump and the excuse are particularly important in the game and are known as bouts ("ends") or sometimes in books as oudlers."

Is it simply that the Bateleur is first and the World is last that they get the extra points?

Yes..

1-Leave aside LE BATELEVR as the begining and XXI as the end also,thus we have two rows of ten cards each one.
2-The first personal contingencies
3-The second Universal contingencies
4-Both arrives at XX (So the two X ) IVGEMENT to see if theu can reach XXI as the Soul for the human being and the Anima Mundi he physical Universe.

eugim

EUGIM wrote:Yes..

1-Leave aside LE BATELEVR as the begining and XXI as the end also,thus we have two rows of ten cards each one.
2-The first personal contingencies
3-The second Universal contingencies
4-Both arrives at XX (So the two X ) IVGEMENT to see if theu can reach XXI as the Soul for the human being and the Anima Mundi he physical Universe.

eugim

I may not be looking at this the way you do, it doesn't really work for me.
What is Justice and Strength doing in the first 10, but Temperance in the second?
What is the Hanged Man doing in the Second?
Wouldn't Love belong on the Second?

Perhaps better grouping then might look like:

Personal:
Fool, Magician, Popess, Empress, Emperor, Pope, Chariot, Hermit, Hanged Man,

Universal:
Love, Fortune, Justice, Strength, Temperance, Death, Star, Moon, Sun, Judgement, World

Frankly, I'm not sure where to force the Devil (Universal?) and Tower.

I'm not seeing this, but then, I'm someone who has yet to find a convincing "meaning" to the order.

Well,just my point of view...
The whole sequence of the cards talk about the purpose of the human being to meet Christ at XXI,thus then God (LE MAT)
All the process suppose a gradual rapprochement that entail of course risks and proofs.
Here an at Aeclectic I evolved that process enough so I think is unnecessary to point it here.
(I don t want to bore you or anyone here )

-Finally the ultimate purpose is what the meaning of the word Religion suppose (re-ligare)

eugim

EUGIM wrote:Well,just my point of view...
The whole sequence of the cards talk about the purpose of the human being to meet Christ at XXI,thus then God (LE MAT)
All the process suppose a gradual rapprochement that entail of course risks and proofs.
Here an at Aeclectic I evolved that process enough so I think is unnecessary to point it here.
(I don t want to bore you or anyone here )

-Finally the ultimate purpose is what the meaning of the word Religion suppose (re-ligare)

eugim

I think the majority of people who are interested in Tarot History would agree that there is a general overall scheme where cards "Triumph" over each other until the ultimate highest level is reached. I don't know anyone that disagrees with that.

I also think that most of us clearly see a religious aspect to this. While I agree that there certainly seems to be a lot of people (more interested in alternative spiritualities) who wish to deny the overtly Christian nature of the cards, I think most who study Tarot History see it as fundamental to iconography.

I would disagree that God = The Fool, for there I think you have wandered off from the very subject that you seem to be suggesting.

I don't understand what your point is. I am not bored at all, nor do I suspect that others would be, to hear your view of the religious aspect to the cards. That doesn't mean that I won't object when you take that view to positions that seem to contradict the actual cards themselves. I object to people developing schemes about the cards, and then forcing them into meanings as proof of their invented schemes, rather than allowing the cards themselves to be the primary example.

So where are you coming from on this? I think we are almost all likely to agree that there is a hierarchical order to the cards suggesting an evolving sequence leading from the lowest to the highest. What I don't understand is why you choose to equate Fool with God or the Magician with Christ, when that would seem to me to be, rather, examples of the lowest of low, not the place for God and Jesus Christ to a medieval mind.

I DO think it is interesting to consider that the Fool, Magician, and World would be seen as the trinity of God, Christ, and Holy Ghost, therefore explaining their point values. I just don't find it convincing to see the Fool or Magician that way.

I do wish to understand, and appreciate hearing your position. I would prefer to learn something new than to be right.
best,
robert

EUGIM wrote:1-Haven t LE BATELEVR and the figure of XXI card a wand ?
2-Aren t LE MAT unnumbered ? / Could it mean that he hasn t any place,so he isn t within the card sequence ?
You number something to place related to others.
Isn t it ?

eugim

True! But Le Mat's lack of number could also mean they thought he wasn't worth a toot. ;)

Robert I think you forgot the Ghostbusters also...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ghos ... _cover.png

1-The Christian source of Tarot no one can deny
2- The neoplatonism of the early Fathers of Christian Church prior the first Nicea Council also.
3-Frenchmen brought Tarot to France after they conquest Milan in 1499.
The philosophical environment in Italy at this time were the Marsilio Ficino and Pico della Miranndola just for two few examples.precisely Marsilio died in 1499
(I m more close to Marsilio anyway...)
4-Then we have as a fact that frenchmen reworked entirely the deck,add titles and numbers.
The iconography thus changed totally.
So I m not agree to see with an italian point of view of a sequence of vices and virtues...
That s works well of course with Visconti Tarocchi but not for Marseilles Tarot my friend.

eugim ;)


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