Tarot History Forum

Looking at the large facsimilies of the Cary Yale and the PMB Visconti, as far as it's possible to tell - without examination of the actual cards themselves - the court card cups and coins (and their characteristic details) have been indicated by outlines (either embossed or possibly simply outlined in paint, it's difficult to tell for sure), rather than painted all over. Most are a lot clearer than in this photograph, but Steve's description of the shape makes more visual sense than my 'flask'. I have tried enlarging the image in Photoshop, but it's not at all clear - I may try again later today if I've time.

Re. the cost of the gold (and the time involved), I honestly don't think this would have been of the slightest relevance in a Renaissance court. Also, gold can be beaten or rolled out to be incredibly thin, so that a tiny amount will cover a large area. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_leaf

Pen

Edited to add that I posted at the same time as Ross. I see the cup clearly now - it's the paint retained on the stem (the darker underside? that confuses the issue).

Here's the left hand. There are some busy lines, smudging or whatever coming up from it that suggest there was once something more substantial there, but it's gone now.



The site allows you to download medium-sized images. In order to get bigger ones, I blow it up as much as possible in the small screen space they provide, and then "print screen" to Photoshop.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
What the left hand is holding, or doing, is harder to see.

I have to admit that I read it that way first, before I'd seen the AT thread. Perhaps the book of medieval pornography mentioned on another thread here will throw a quite different light on the image and mmfelesi will not be disappointed...

Pen

Pen wrote:

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
What the left hand is holding, or doing, is harder to see.

I have to admit that I read it that way first, before I'd seen the AT thread Perhaps the book of medieval pornography mentioned on another thread will throw a quite different light on the image and mmfelesi will not be disappointed...

Pen

I have to admit I "see" a phallus - or the typical way a phallus might be represented in the 15th century, pointed at the end. There is a curl at the end, suggesting a flower. Maybe the figure really is a hermaphrodite - but why?

Possibly the color of the real painted penis was artificially erased for moralistic reason sand that what we see is the rest of it.

Others, who brought up the Temperance theory, had declared, that they could see the rests of something, which they identified as the two usual Temperance cups



Dog with erotic attempts at the right leg of the figure?



Erotic angel with dog at the top



Birds are possibly generally an "erotic" element ... see Michelino deck with 4 different birds. Btw: There are two funny faces at the coins

Huck wrote:Possibly the color of the real painted penis was artificially erased for moralistic reason sand that what we see is the rest of it.

Others, who brought up the Temperance theory, had declared, that they could see the rests of something, which they identified as the two usual Temperance cups

Well, if the penis were on fire, and the curve I see is the flame, then pouring water on it would be a kind of temperance, wouldn't it? ;)

However, I think the more interesting study is whether we can find a cognate for the image, or some textual or literary basis for it.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
Well, if the penis were on fire, and the curve I see is the flame, then pouring water on it would be a kind of temperance, wouldn't it? ;)

However, I think the more interesting study is whether we can find a cognate for the image, or some textual or literary basis for it.

I think, that all these early hand painted Trionfi cards were more or less "private editions" and here we've the case, that somebody went a little far with his interpretation of "private".

Perhaps the question is interesting, if this "variation of the Charles VI cards" had similarities to the Charles VI smaller arcana - for instance in the structure of the golden background.



The color is not everywhere thick, so I see some white of the background in the left (or right) red leg of this Charles VI figure. Similar weak color quality appears also in the Ursino cards, there more frequently.

The Charles VI figure is stretched over the outside frame. Similar the Ursino cards.

The border of the Charles VI cards shows 2 lines crossing each other, one section of it looks more like an "8". In contrast the Ursino cards show a similar structure, but one section looks more like an "S" overlapping with the other "S" ... possibly by longer use or "more changing light influence" for these cards. At least the border looks similar, though the Ursino cards have clearly lost in color.

The golden structure in the Charles VI seems to be arranged individually according the form of the relevant golden spot on the card (one has to observe more than one Charles VI card for this impression). This seems to be arranged similar in the Ursino cards (court cards) ... it is different with Visconti Sforza cards (only mostly ? or always? at least in the PMB). Also border-crossing was not used. And the border has no structure.





.

Ok.

Seeing the embossed gold cup on other (court) cards and the closeup of the card affects my thinking about her right (upper) hand.

1. Is this intended to be a "half-hidden" cup? Then what is the horn or stick-like object she holds? Is it "disguising" the cup? If the cup was painted over the embossed gold, and the stick is the remaining paint, is there somewhere that shows where paint has peeled off, leaving gold beneath it?

3. With her left (lower) hand, I'm not buying the projected "something" she's holding. It appears to be the same coloration--or discoloration--that appears over much of her chest and belly. Is something also hidden there?

It's curious.

Petrarca sometimes compared Laura with a deer...


But I don't surrender, and I know that there is a place beyond narrland, where this card represents Santa Klaus.