Tarot History Forum

Magic Moon: I hope you noticed the date of the Selenus, the fact of nine pieces, and the odd names. It is neither 15th century nor chess as it was played in Italy at that time, for example as described by Boccaccio.

Also, Huck's theory about the Modrone leaves the identity of one of the bishops blank. That it would be the Wheel is my hypothesis, I don't think you can infer that he meant it to be the Hanged Man, because the 16 in the Charles VI are different from the 16 in the Modrone.

Added: Just to be clear: the hypothesis that the Wheel and Old Man were related to the alfini by way of the meaning of "al fino", at the end, is mine alone: I have not seen it elsewhere.

Mikeh, your last few clarifications are great! I don't know what Selenus is. I'd probably have to delve deeper into chess. But I understand very well the rest that you say.

********

Thanks, Steve.

By the way, I think there's a slightly confusing detail that deserves a detailed analysis. On the one hand, it seems that the Bishop piece comes from the Elephant piece, as the name suggests. However, there were similarities between the Elephant and the Rook, which makes me think that perhaps the Rook comes from the Elephant, in a way. In an image from another thread I posted here talking to Mikeh, we see an Elephant piece with a Rook on top of it. Furthermore, the Elephant's horogonal move was the Rook's move. The Bishop has a notch or slit that may look like a smile and is sometimes described as V-shaped or as horns. On the other hand, the Rook's horns supposedly come from the shape of a lance used in sports combat (medieval jousting) but I think perhaps they resemble the horns of an elephant.

I think this may be related to the discussion about the original evolution of Chess, that is, the doubt about its Chinese, Hindu, etc. origin. I have not yet been able to study it in great detail.

Steve, do you agree with Huck's theory about the correspondence between chess pieces and trionfi cards? Probably you have yet spoke about that.

I think I'll explore other threads. I missed some things in the Imperiali and Lollio thread.

Greetings!

Magic Moon: By "Selenus" I meant the account of courier chess, which had as one of its pieces an elephant with a tower on its back, by Gustav Selenus, 1615. For posts discussing it, search "Selenus" in the forum's search function. In some posts the name is spelled "Silenus." I think "Selenus" is correct. That depiction goes back about a century, but no more. It derives from an image in the Hypnerotomachia of 1499 Venice, of an elephant with an obelisk on its back. It has no relevance to regular chess as played in 15th century Italy.

Sorry for the late reply. I just noticed your post.

mikeh wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 03:07
In the rest of the post, I think in general you understand what I am saying, and we agree, at least in principle. Even if "tarus" does not mean "wood" in Latin, there is still "tarocch" meaning trunk of a tree or block of wood in Lombard, with a different derivation. See viewtopic.php?p=23910#p23910 and following. (You acknowledge that, I think.) However, for that derivation, there is no explanation for how it became "tarau". For that reason, I prefer the "tarakh" derivation for "taroch" and "tarocco", which became "taro" in Provençal.

Looking up Tarous in Tresor dóu Felibrige ; dictionnaire provençal-français (1878)

I find also:

TAROÜCH, TARROU(l.), TAROÜTRE (Vaucl.), (Rom. tarron), s. m. A thick and short stick, a club, cf. barroun.
Compare this word with Basque tarro, a little big, or with Prov. trounc.

For reference the entry on Tarous has:

TAROÜS, OÜSO, adj. Having defects, flawed, defective, cf. endeca.

Me sort d’armados de fossières,
Escarabihas, tes tarous.
— A. ARNAUTELLE
(They come armed with pickaxes, beetles, your flawed ones.)

ENDECA, ENTECA (L. g.), ENDECHA (A. Lim.), (from endechi, Rom. entacar, entachar), v. a. To taint, to stain, to flaw, to damage, to spoil, cf. afouela, degaita, magagna; to cripple, to render infirm or sick, cf. estroppia; to infect, to poison, cf. enfeçi; to disgust, to take away appetite, cf. desgousta.
Endègue, ques, co, can, cas, con.

Se l’endeque ansia, es pèr que nou pete.
— G. CROSILLAT
(If it spoils like this, it’s so it doesn’t burst.)

La maire qu’a pas prou de lach endeco soun efan.
— G. AZAIS [fant.]
(The mother who doesn’t have enough milk makes her child sickly.)

S’ENDECA, S’ENTECA, v. r. To become flawed, to deteriorate, to develop a defect, to contract a vice, to wither.

Toui aqueus aganits prestes à s’enteca.
— J. JASMIN
(All those grapes are ready to go bad.)

Dessouto aquel rouvi li pensados d’endeco.
— LAFARGUE-ALAIS
(Underneath that rust grew sickly thoughts.)

ENDECA, ENDECAT (L. g.), ADO (Rom. endechat, Cat. entecat, Esp. entecado), past participle, adj. and n. Flawed, vitiated, defective, worn out; rachitic, when speaking of plants; consumptive, when speaking of livestock; deformed, crippled, lame, mutilated, wounded; sickly, weak, wasted, moribund.

Es tout endeca, il est tout contrefait, il est plein d’infirmités; es endeca pèr sa vido, il est estropié pour le reste de ses jours: un enfant endeca, un enfant noué, rachitique; un pauro endeca, un pauvret infirme; de frucho endecado, des fruits entichés; planto endecado, plante chétive, languissante; ai li man endecado, j’ai les mains en compote.
(He is all defective, deformed, full of infirmities; crippled for life: a stunted child; a poor infirm one; spoiled fruit; withered plant; my hands are limp.)

I’a res que noun fague endeca.
— J. BOUAMIELLE
(There is nothing that doesn’t spoil.)

SteveM wrote: 10 Sep 2025, 14:12

TAROÜCH, TARROU(l.), TAROÜTRE (Vaucl.), (Rom. tarron), s. m. A thick and short stick, a club, cf. barroun.

In Cappelletti’s Vocabolario milanese-italiano-francese (1848), we find:

Tarocch =

(a) Tarocco, germini, minchiate, i.e. tarot cards.

(b) Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco, chantier, chicot, souche, i.e. log, trunk, stump, block of wood.

And then the figurative sense: blockhead, dunce, loggerhead.

In Provençal we have “TAROÜCH, TARROU(l.), TAROÜTRE”

Defined as: “a thick and short stick, a club, cf. barroun.”

Romance cognate given: tarron.

Suggested comparison with Basque tarro “somewhat big” or Provençal trounc (trunk, block).

So in Provençal, too, we have the semantic field of wood, trunk, block, stick.

Both Tarocch (Milanese) and TAROÜCH (Provençal) are possibly from a common Romance root cluster around:

tronco (It.) / trounc (Prov.) = trunk, block, stump.

Extended to “club, stick.”

Figurative sense → “blockhead, dunce.”

So:

In Milanese, Tarocch = trunk, stump & figuratively to Fool.

In Provençal, Taroüch = short thick stick/club, which by the same logic could also yield the figurative “blockhead"?

SteveM wrote: 10 Sep 2025, 14:12

mikeh wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 03:07
In the rest of the post, I think in general you understand what I am saying, and we agree, at least in principle. Even if "tarus" does not mean "wood" in Latin, there is still "tarocch" meaning trunk of a tree or block of wood in Lombard, with a different derivation. See viewtopic.php?p=23910#p23910 and following. (You acknowledge that, I think.) However, for that derivation, there is no explanation for how it became "tarau". For that reason, I prefer the "tarakh" derivation for "taroch" and "tarocco", which became "taro" in Provençal.

Looking up Tarous in Tresor dóu Felibrige ; dictionnaire provençal-français (1878)

I find also:

TAROÜCH, TARROU(l.), TAROÜTRE (Vaucl.), (Rom. tarron), s. m. A thick and short stick, a club, cf. barroun.
Compare this word with Basque tarro, a little big, or with Prov. trounc.

For reference the entry on Tarous has:

TAROÜS, OÜSO, adj. Having defects, flawed, defective, cf. endeca.

I somehow missed these posts. Sorry for the late reply.

Do you have a link for this 1878 edition of Felibrige? All I can get to is an 1879 edition, which gives a slightly different spelling: TARROUN, TARROU (l.), TAROUIRE (vaucl.), (rom. tarron). Then the same definition (in French). I'm not sure what the "l." stands for.

Yes, this entry answers my objection - it is the Provencal cognate to tarocch in Lombard, meaning "trunk" and by extension "blockhead."

Another difference in spelling is that the "TAROUS, OUSO" in the 1879 doesn't have the two dots over the U in what I have access to, which might mean that the U is pronounced. That would then not be spelled "TARAUX" in French. But there is a related definition for "TARO" (meaning damage), which is surely pronounced the way it is spelled. It would be nice if the Provencal word, in the plural, was pronounced in the way that "taraux" would be pronounced in French.

I also see "TAROUN" and perhaps also TAROU and variants taron and taro as meaning, in French, "talon." The talon in card games is the pile of undealt cards after the deal. So the game with the talon? But "talon" in Italian is "tacco", not "tarocco", and I can't see that it used for an undealt pile of cards (although it is for a small block of wood, I think on the heel of a shoe). "Tacco" is at least another example of the -o corresponding to -co. An undealt pile of cards does seem to be called "skat" in some German games, which comes from Italian "scarto", discard; whether that "skat" is the same as a talon I don't know.