Tarot History Forum

Magic Moon wrote: 20 May 2025, 21:45
This ship card could be the only indication that the Minchiate had 40 triumphs in the 15th century. It's a very slight clue. I don't think that this ship card belonged to a Minchiate. The design resembles certain cards from the Visconti Sforza group. I don't think that this card is from the late 15th century but from the early 16th century.

I think the spelling of vulgus as volgus is a rare variant, occasionally found in medieval manuscripts that I think would have been archaic even in the late 15th century, I wonder if it is purposely intended to make the card look older?

The line:

"Odi profanum vulgus et arceo"

“I hate the common crowd and keep them at bay.”
Horace, Odes 3.1.1

beneath the image of the ship anchors the card within a humanist, emblematic, or moralizing tradition—likely placing it after the late 15th century. It functions like a motto which, on a card paired with an image, matches the conventions of Renaissance emblems or allegorical educational decks.

The text elevates the image into moral or philosophical territory, encouraging us to read the ship as a symbol of the initiated, of stoic detachment, or of the chosen soul sailing away from the vulgar masses.

At least, that is, if we take the one line on its own: However, if we take it as the first line from which we should recall the Ode as a whole, as a stoic eulogy for the simple life v. the heavy load of power & riches, then the symbolism of the ship & of the sea takes on a much darker, and contrary aspect.

In particular the verses:

Desiderantem quod satis est neque
tumultuosum sollicitat mare
nec saevus Arcturi cadentis
impetus aut orientis Haedi,

The man content with what is enough
is not troubled by stormy seas
nor the wild gales
of sinking Arcturus or rising Haedi.

Arcturus and Haedi: stars associated with violent storms.

Quod satis est = the Stoic golden rule—sufficiency, not excess.

Contracta pisces aequora sentiunt
iactis in altum molibus: huc frequens
caementa demittit redemptor
cum famulis dominusque terrae

The fish feel the seas shrink
under mounds of stone cast into the deep:
The builder drops concrete blocks
for the landowner and his crew.

Refers to Romans reclaiming sea for villas
caementa: raw stone—symbols of luxury expansion.
An allegory [or exemplar] of the hubris in reshaping nature.

https://hakaimagazine.com/features/how- ... ked-beach/

Fastidiosus: sed Timor et Minae
scandunt eodem quo dominus, neque
decedit aerata triremi et
post equitem sedet atra Cura.

But still, Fear and Menace
climb aboard with their owner.
They don’t leave his bronze-trimmed ship;
Angst, black-robed, rides right behind him.

aerata triremi = elite ships—luxury travel.
atra Cura: "black Care" = anxiety, guilt, worry, dread.

An allegory for the Stoic maxim - Wherever you go, you bring yourself.

In the context of hubris, guilt, existential angst, fears & menaces, we may perhaps see a justification for the substitution of the Devil by the Ship as in the Sicilian Tarot: the which however, is far to late for our card if the dating is anywhere near correct. I note, for completeness, the coincidence of a Sicilian reference in the Ode, however tangential, in which those under the sword of Damacles (a Sicilian) cannot in their existential angst enjoy the taste of a Sicilian feast, nor drowse sweetly to the sounds of the lyre or bird-song:

Destrictus ensis cui super inpia
cervice pendet, non Siculae dapes
dulcem elaborabunt saporem,
non avium citharaeque cantus

somnum reducent,...

The drawn sword hanging over a godless head
spoils the taste of Sicilian feasts;
neither birdsong nor harp music
will bring back sweet sleep.

Sword of Damocles—an image of peril hanging over power.
Siculae dapes: Sicily was famed for luxurious foods, and was a classical Epithet for the pleasure seeking in general.

Sleep eludes the guilty—a Stoic insight: peace lies in virtue, not luxury.

SteveM wrote: 21 May 2025, 13:37
Desiderantem quod satis est neque
tumultuosum sollicitat mare
nec saevus Arcturi cadentis
impetus aut orientis Haedi,

Refences in the Ode to Jupiter, Arcturus, Sicily, a Ship & the sea, remind me of the comic play Rudens by Plautus, in which:

Daemones, an old man from Athens, now lives in exile by the sea near Cyrene (in North Africa — modern Libya);

Years earlier, he lost his daughter Palaestra after being deceived by a thief;

That thief sold the girl to a procurer/pimp named Labrax;

Labrax brought her to Cyrene, planning to profit off her;

A young man from the city — Plesidippus — saw her, fell in love, and paid Labrax to purchase her, swearing an oath;

But Labrax, ever the scoundrel, plans to break the deal and sail to Sicily instead, where he’s told courtesans fetch a higher price;

His companion is a fellow crook from Agrigentum (a city in Sicily);

The play opens just after their ship has wrecked off the coast — near where Daemones now lives — thanks to a storm.

It begins with a prologue by a personified Arcturus, in which:

He speaks of Sicily as a land known for oath-breakers and pleasure-seekers;

Labrax, going to Sicily to make immoral profit, will be punished;

Arcturus brings the storm that shipwrecks Labrax before he can escape with Palaestra.

The prologue (paraphrased - sounds a bit like the plot of Shakespeare's Tempest!):

ARCTURUS:
Eyes to the sky, mortals! I am Arcturus,
Star of Boötes, blazing bright in the heavens —
but not merely for show.
I’m the high watchman of Jupiter,
keeper of oaths, scout of the divine patrol.

Old Jove sends me down from the constellations
to spy out treachery, deceit, and broken vows.
From the black peaks of Sicily to the stormy ports of Cyrene,
I’ve watched men scheme, lie, swear falsely, and sell what’s not theirs to sell.

Ah, Sicily! I passed over Agrigentum not long ago —
a land of sweet grapes and sweeter lies.
There, pleasures are bought in taverns, and oaths are traded like coins.
It’s a haven for rascals, cheats, and greedy old fools —
like the one now sailing towards its shores, dreaming of profit and sin.

My orders from Olympus were clear:
a storm must strike,
and the sea must churn with justice.
For one particular knave —
a pimp, a breaker of sacred vows —
has gone too far.
He dared to swindle a young citizen of Cyrene,
breaking an oath made in a holy temple.
He thought to flee to Sicily,
with a stolen girl in tow and silver in his eyes.
But I would not let it stand.
The winds were mine.
The lightning — a message from Jupiter himself.
And now, that wretch Labrax lies soaked and shivering on the shore,
his ship shattered, his schemes undone.

As for the girl — a child lost long ago,
torn from her father by theft and misfortune —
fate brings her near the very cottage by the sea
where her old father, Daemones, now lives in exile.
He lost his fortune and his daughter in one cruel blow.
But today, the gods may grant him something back.

So, good folk —
Laugh if you will at what follows. There’ll be trickery, confusions,
and characters as tangled as fishing ropes.
But know this:
Behind every comedy is a reckoning.
Behind every jest, a judgment.

The stars see all.
And the gods do not forget.


The opening of Horace's Odes Book 3 and the prologue of Plautus' Rudens, though written over a century apart and in different literary forms, share common themes. Both texts present a vision of the world in which divine order governs human affairs, and virtue, particularly in the form of moderation and detachment, is exalted over wealth, ambition, and moral decay.

The prologue of Rudens is delivered by Arcturus, personified as a speaking star who claims dominion over the weather and descends to oversee human behavior. He explicitly identifies his role as that of a divine observer and occasional corrector of mortal conduct. His arrival precedes a sea-storm that serves as both dramatic device and divine retribution against immoral characters, particularly the procurer Labrax. The star-god’s disdain for human vice, especially deceit, greed, and impiety, is central to his speech. He emphasizes that the gods are not indifferent: they see, remember, and punish human wrongdoing: And the sea becomes an instrument of justice.

Horace’s Ode 3.1, likewise opens with an authoritative, priest-like persona who claims special status as a prophetic poet-priest of the Muses. He demands silence from the "profane crowd" and addresses the young of Rome with precepts that underscore the Stoic values of self-control, constancy, and sufficiency. He declares that even kings are subject to Jupiter, who, having triumphed over the rebellious Giants, governs all with a raised brow. Horace’s invocation of cosmic justice echoes Arcturus’ moral cosmology.

Both texts use the sea and celestial phenomena as metaphors for divine order and human limits. In Rudens, Arcturus conjures a literal storm to disrupt the unjust ambitions of men who traffic in flesh and violate sacred oaths. In Ode 3.1, Horace refers to the star Arcturus and the Haedi , whose risings and settings signal seasonal storms. These references are symbolic: the sea, indifferent to luxury, punishes overreach. The metaphor of wealthy men extending their villas into the ocean, "contracta pisces aequora sentiunt / iactis in altum molibus", is an emblem of futile and hubristic ambition.

Both texts center on the moral delusions of the rich and powerful. Arcturus, in Rudens, castigates mortals who betray virtue for gain. His divine perspective emphasizes that material wealth and cunning do not shield one from divine consequence. Similarly, Horace portrays the elite Roman who, though ensconced in opulence, is hounded by Timor and Minae, Fear and Threats, and followed even in his gilded ship by atra Cura, Black Cares. The use of allegorical figures convey the idea that inner turmoil accompanies a guilty conscience.

The value of rustic simplicity also links the two works. In Rudens, the honest exile Daemones, though dispossessed, emerges as a figure of dignity and paternal compassion. His quiet life by the sea, contrasted with the wreckage of Labrax’s greed, embodies the moral restoration that the storm brings. Horace, too, closes his ode with a rejection of grandeur, preferring his Sabine valley retreat to an ornate palace. The peace afforded by modesty is not merely aesthetic but ethical, rooted in Stoic ideals of modesty and peace of mind.

A final intertextual detail is the name Arcturus itself. In Plautus, it is the character and speaker; in Horace, a celestial portent. I am not alone in seeing both occurences as an intertextual reference, Paul Shorey in his Commentary on Horace, Odes, Epodes, and Carmen Saecular also notes it. Horace may be deliberately invoking the moral symbolism established in Rudens, aligning his poetic persona with the star’s judicial authority and cosmic vision.

viewtopic.php?p=16059#p16059

There is something about the motto and the chessboard, which appears as a sail on the ship.

Huck wrote: 21 May 2025, 23:23 viewtopic.php?p=16059#p16059

There is something about the motto and the chessboard, which appears as a sail on the ship.

Is it a chess board? Or a type of cross? Perhaps in context of the sails some association with the winds?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Croatia
It is the flag of Croatia.
You have to look at the pictures, which you don't see. One of the pictures contains the motto. To see the pictures you have to open the source code by quoting the text. Then you see the link.

This is old Croatian heraldry. The chessboard is already there.
http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/coat1.html Possibly you can't see also these pictures.

Steve and Huck: I favor a cross, as in Columbus's ship,at least as popularly depicted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar ... 0207.JPGz0.
The squares are not embedded in anything suggesting a shield or coat of arms.

Magic Moon: As far as how many trumps minchiate would have had pre-1500, I don't think it improbable that there were at least 24, not counting the Fool, because before 1500, we have evidence of 25 trumps plus the Fool in a tarocchi with other standard subjects. The Popess was removed (in the Strambatto), but the three theological virtues and probably Prudence were in the Visconti di Modrone. It is true that we don't have evidence of the full set until 1526, Francesco Berni, who spoke of "sminchiate" in relation to images of "the sun, the moon and the twelve" (http://iapsop.com/ssoc/1816__singer___r ... _cards.pdf, pp. 27-28).

And I agree with Steve that the Ship card, if you mean the Sicilian card (which yes, convincingly substitutes for the Devil), is too late to be evidence of anything in the 15th century. It is more likely a borrowing from the minchiate Water card than the reverse.

It is the same motto and it is the same Croatian flag and both pictures are playing cards and the other card is part of other cards, from which at least one is identical to other Visconti-Sforza cards. That's a 99.9 % case. A Croatian flag.

Here it was discussed .... now it is very chaotic ....
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... 552/page-3
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... 552/page-4
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... 552/page-5
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... 552/page-6
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... 552/page-7

Obi profanum vulgu et arceo

Huck wrote: 22 May 2025, 11:12 It is the same motto and it is the same Croatian flag and both pictures are playing cards and the other card is part of other cards, from which at least one is identical to other Visconti-Sforza cards.

Bild_2025-05-22_141102915.png


Obi profanum vulgu et arceo

Thanks for that picture, no I haven't seen it before - also I dont' see any pictures on the ATF site, also it is very difficult read with many adverts - that picture is very interesting yes - what else have I missed!?

Do you have a source & context for the flag with motto? My very brief search so far has only got me to the use of the motto by 19th century Croatian neo-classicists, who 'who no desire to be understood by the masses."

I have no idea what you mean by both picture are playing cards and the other is part of other cards & your links aren't enlightening me. Can you summarize and clarify as the links to numerous thread with many broken links to images is only chaotically confusing.

Is the image of checkerboard with motto a detail from a card which is part of another deck, a partial deck of 5 cards? Do we have the full image, and of the other cards too?
The image on the sail still looks to me more cross-like than a red&white checker-board - it is not a red & white checker-board...

Where is this image from? What is the context? Do I understand you right in that it is a detail from a playing card, from a deck of which 5 cards are still known? Do you have the full image, as well as that of the remaining cards? Where is it/they now?
Is there any signficance or symobolism (e.g., heraldic) in which the cartouche upon which the red & white pattern appears is like that of a stretched animal hide?

I'm like Steve: I'm interested in knowing the context of that card that has a Croatian flag next to the same motto as the ship with a possible Croatian flag (double meaning: chess and cross). I'd seen that image but didn't know it was a card. If it's not a card, it's still interesting.

Huck, I think you once said this: possibly, the Croatian Count Frangipani had the deck for that Ship card in 1512. That's interesting. Please, what arguments did you have to suspect that? Do you mean the Ship deck was created in 1512 for that Croatian count, or could it be an older deck created before 1512?

I'm wondering if that card was created before or after 1506, when the name of the game Germini seems to have originated. That is, I believe the sequence of 40 trumps (including the Fool but without the Magician) existed around 1506.

***********

Thanks Mikeh for reflecting and reminding Berni. I thought Sminchiate was a word used by players from Bologna, when they probably didn't use a Minchiate-Germini deck but rather a Bolognese Tarot. In Berni's text, perhaps Sminchiate refers to the Minchiate-Germini deck (as you suggest) or perhaps it refers to a game or type of bet within the game with Tarot or Minchiate-Germini cards. The Italian word Sminchiate is related to the verb Sminchiare, which means "to destroy." It's not the same as Minchiare, whose meaning is "to make jokes or stupid things" It's doubtful that Sminchiate is the same as Minchiate, but the two words can easily be confused, and perhaps Berni confused them in that text. They are two colloquial words that can have different meanings depending on the region and time period. There are Italians who don't know the verb "sminchiare," but others know it very well. It's harder to find Italians who know the participle "sminchiate," but I found one person who use that for tired person. In any case, I don't think this affects the dating of the loose ship's chart. By the way, I've read that the loose ship's chart is made of parchment, or treated leather, different from the rawhide used in the suit decks created later by Native Americans.

From ...
https://intomystery.substack.com/p/the- ... medium=web
At the right bottom we have a face (likely at the card COIN-1) and beside that a heraldic device with the Visconti-Viper.

Well, it's not really plausible, that this deck was made 1500-1512, when France reigned in Milan.

,,,, the few details, which I know from the deck with Croatia chessboard, contain ....


.... and above we have ....
.... and again from https://intomystery.substack.com/p/the- ... medium=web
4 Victoria-Albert Cards

AGAIN THE SAME STAR
AND THE ISABELLA D'ESTE MOTTO NEC SPES NEC METU

It is assumed, that Isabella adopted the motto in 1504/05..

I found this and I don't know, what this is .... I remember, that I read, that the Rosenthal pictures were located ... but I don't find them. Is this one of them?

Exposition in London?