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Re: Bolognese sequence

331
Magic Moon wrote: 03 May 2025, 02:51 What does she mean when she mentions the Cary Collection? .
There are two incomplete Orfeo decks listed in the Catalogue of the Cary playing card collection, ITA63 & ITA64. They are not among those in the online database so presumable have not been digitized.
Magic Moon wrote: 03 May 2025, 02:51 I think Huck links Avignon 1505 with the Estes of Ferrara, but I still don't quite understand that detail.
Perhaps on the basis that our two earliest reference to tarot [as opposed to trionfi] occurs around the same time in Avignon & Ferrara.
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Re: Bolognese sequence

332
Hello.
Thanks, Steve.
I have some problems about Piedmont tarot order.

Wiki say that:
"Tarot decks were in production in Pinerolo by 1505"
Here in History:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarocco_Piemontese
Whay Wiki say that? There is a document about Pinerolo 1505?

Mikeh say that Avignon 1505 document menrion tarot to export to Piedmont (Italy). I dont find in THF chat about Piedmont becouse I dont find how to look for in THF. Mikeh say that this tool is on top in any THF page but I dont find it.

If Cary Sheet was used in Piedmont, then it was made in Avignon or in Pinerolo?

Wiki say that in the same post:
"Like in Bologna, the highest trump is the Angel which outranks the World"
But Francesco Piscina say that World is higher than Angel. Right?

Sorry. I am confused about Piedmont.

**********

I were thinking about us. We speak about lot of things and some times we say something interesting for other persons. Some times we could be mentioned in some text extern to this forum. Probably in an article or a PDF or a physical book or some blog or web. In this case, have we the same name that here (forum THF)?
Robert, what is your name in investigation context out of THF?
Steve, what ia your name as investigator?
Probably the Nathaniel in this forum is the same that wrote about Trappola as Nathaniel Shockley.
I know about Ross, MikeH and Huck. Then, I dont ask their names.
I would like to know what year Huck was born (because I have never seen that information in a biography) but I can accept the natural limitations of my human knowledge
By the way, I thought Sylvia Mann was born in Germany because she published a book at a German exhibition, but now I think she was probably English.
My investigator name is Lunio but here in conversations I like to be only Magic Moon.

Here you have my interpretation about Huck Sola Busca structure. Then it is made by Huck and Lunio. This name is only important if someone mention this estructure outside of this forum. I hope that everybody could see this picture. Reciently I think pictures run fine in THF. This is wrote in spanish, sorry.
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Re: Bolognese sequence

333
viewtopic.php?t=502

.... a post to 1505 .... Avignon
Current Historical Understanding: The earliest names for the tarot are all Italian. Originally the cards were called carte da trionfi (cards of the triumphs). Around 1530 (about 100 years after the origin of the cards), the word tarocchi (singular tarocco) begins to be used to distinguish them from a new game of triumphs or trumps then being played with ordinary playing cards. The etymology of this new word is not known. The German form is tarock, the French form is tarot. Even if the etymology were known, it would probably not tell us much about the idea behind the cards, since it only came into use 100 years after they first appeared.

The use of the word Tarocchi and Taraux is proven for the year 1505 in two cases, one for Italy, one for France (recent findings of Depaulis and Francesschini). Before that date an use is unknown.
This is from an older text, meanwhile the case is more complex.

Magic Moon wrote ...
Mikeh say that Avignon 1505 document menrion tarot to export to Piedmont (Italy). I dont find in THF chat about Piedmont becouse I dont find how to look for in THF. Mikeh say that this tool is on top in any THF page but I dont find it.
This tool is very important.
It's the 3rd symbol of 5 in the right top, before the personal sign of you (4th sign) and after envelope (1st) and bell (2nd). There is a second search possible, which allows to ask for a second term or for a word in the thread, where you currently are (then the computer offers "search this topic" in the case of "mouseover").

btw .... https://www.i-p-c-s.org/wp/silvia_mann/
Last edited by Huck on 04 May 2025, 12:04, edited 4 times in total.

Re: Bolognese sequence

334
Magic Moon wrote: 04 May 2025, 03:06 Hello.
Thanks, Steve.
I have some problems about Piedmont tarot order.

Wiki say that:
"Tarot decks were in production in Pinerolo by 1505"
Here in History:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarocco_Piemontese
Whay Wiki say that? There is a document about Pinerolo 1505?
Ross probably has better details for this, but from memory I recall that

June 1505, the name Tarochi was first used in Ferrara.

December 1505, the name Taraux appeared in Avignon.

This second reference is somehow connected with Pinerolo, I am not sure how, presumably they appear together in same document in reference to Taraux? I have seen conflicting information but posted without references, that either that they were produced in Pinerolo, or exported there from Avignon?

edited to add: cross-posted with Huck with response by Huck, above.

re-edited to add:

From at post by Ross on the Aeclectic Tarot history forum:
1505. December. The first known reference anywhere to cards called "taraux"

(a little earlier in the year, in Ferrara, "tarocchi" are mentioned for the first time). Cardmaker Jean Fort (mentioned above), in Avignon, agrees to send various items to Pinerolo (in Savoy/Piedmont, near Turin), including 48 packs of cards "commonly called taraux".
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/the- ... ost-828849

Thus, unless there is some other document I am unaware of, it seems that "Taraux" decks were being exported to Pinerolo from Avignon in 1505, not that they were being produced in Pinerolo. Probably the cards being exported from Avignon were of a Type C Pattern [that is with Temperance high, ie after death] such as described in Piscina's Discorso.
Last edited by SteveM on 04 May 2025, 11:42, edited 4 times in total.

Re: Bolognese sequence

335
Re: the order of Carro below the virtues, we also have a sixteenth century Tarocchi Appropirati reported by Vitali, which he relates to Bologna, with the exception only that Mondo is above Angelo:

Mondo, Angelo, Sole, Luna, Stella, Sagieta, Demonio, Morte, Traditor, Vecchio, Rota, Iusticia, Forza, Temperanza, Carro, Amor, Papa, Imperatore, Imperatrice, Bagatin, Matto.


See post by MikeH here:

viewtopic.php?p=25735#p25735

Re: Bolognese sequence

336
Thanks for calling attention to that 16th century tarocchi appropriati, Steve. People should also read Nathaniel's post following mine, casting doubt about its being from Bologna. The difficulty is that there was much intercity influence, whether in Bologna or in places like Forli, Faenza, etc., (as well as just plain minor variations, as in the interchange of justice and fortitude). For intercity variation, there is a tarocchi appropriati, for example, published in 1594 Milan listing the subjects in the order of Ferrara/Venice, by someone whom Andrea says was a comic actor whose home base, at least part of the time, was Bologna. The names for the triumphs are partly Bolognese: giusti, papi, bagatino. But "infiammata casa" is Ferrara (or Venice?): https://books.google.com/books/about/Vi ... 5pAAAAcAAJ, third villanella, "sopra il gioco di tarochi". Unfortunately, Andrea's essay on Sivello is not currently online. I am using the section on him in the book that Andrea and I edited together. Added: also, the game described by Lollio in mid-16th century Ferrara was with a 62 card deck ("A tarocchino terziglio in 1550 Ferrara, by Girolamo Zorli, The Playing-Card 36, no. 2 (Oct.-Dec. 2007), p. 90).

I suspect that the Chariot went below the virtues due its placement in Ferrara.

Magic Moon: thanks for the Sylvia Mann quote. There is no mention there of the two sheets of the BAR: the initials are short for "Ecole Nationale Superieure des Beaux Arts plus the Rothschild Collection at the Musee de Louvre, each with one of the sheets). I still would like to know where the quote comes from.

The Piedmont order is that presented in Francesco Piscina's Discorso, 1565, as discussed by Fanco Pratesi at https://naibi.net/A/04-PISCIN-Z.pdf (which is on the web-page you cited). The original work is at http://www.letarot.it/index.aspx. The order is on the web-page you cited. The whole thing is in Italian and English in Caldwell, Depaulis, and Ponzi, Con gli occhi e con l'intelleto: Explaining the Tarot in Sixteenth Century Italy, well worth buying.

For Pinerola, the source is the Avignon document that mentions "taraux" in Dec. 1505, presented by Thierry Depaulis in his article "Des "cartes communément appelées taraux"", The Playing-Card, vol. 32, n° 5, March-April 2004, p. 199-205 and n° 6, May-June 2004, p. 244-249. (Ross called attention to it in a post you can find by using the "search" function). He did not provide the quotation, but here it is (my highlighting):
A.D. Vaucluse, 3E 8/1139 (Étude Martin), fol. 246v-247v, 6-XII-1505
Emptio papiri pro discreto magistro Joanne Fortisf adore cartarum cive et
habitatore Avinionis.
Anno a Nativitate Domini millesimo quingentesimo quinto [1505] et die sexta mensis
decembris, in mei presentia notorii personaliter constitua Christoforus Galea, mercator de
Pinerolio diocesis Taurinensis factor papiri, et Bernardinus Truque, factor cartarum dicti
loci de Pinerolio euiusdem diocesis, ambo simul et eorum quilibet insolidum tam conjuctum
uam divisum bona fide et per se et suos et cujuslibet ipsorum insolidum heredes,
vendiderunt dicto magistro Joanni Fortis presenti, videlicet quinguaginta ramas papiri
mejani cartarum ponderis cujuslibet ramas decem et octo librarum ad pondus Avinionis
pro minori, quas quinguaginta ramas papiri ponderis predicti dicti Christoforus Galea
et Bernardinus Truque ambo simul et eorum quïlïbet in solidum per se et suos, eidem
magistro Joanni Fortis presenti aut suis reddere, tradere, solvere ac realiter et cum effectu
expedire promiserunt in presenti civitate Avinionis et in domo habitationis sue aut
suorum, [...] hinc ad medium Quadragesime proximefuture et immédiate sequentis et
hoc pro predo et nomine predi inter se convento et concordato quadraginta quinque
florinorum monete Avinione currentis.
In cujus pretii deductione dicti Christoforus Galea et Bernardinus Truque per se et
suos a dicto /fol. 247/'magistro Joanni Fortis presente confessi fuerunthabuisse et realiter
recepisse summam videlicet triginta quatuor florinorum monete Avinione currentis pro
arris paga et in solutum scilicet in quinque pedis modulorum sive moles artis cartarum,
duabus grossis cartarum de Lugduno et quatuor duodenis quartarum vulgo appelatarum
taraux, necnon tribus libri setarum porci et restam in coloribus perceys Flandrie.
[.. .JRestam vero dictus magister Johannes Fortis per se et suos eisdem Galea et Truque
presentibus aut suis solvere pomisit, habitis dicti quinquaginta ramis papiri
superspecificatis.
[.. .Jdicte partes inter se et sibi ipsis obligaverunt, videlicet dictus Johannes Fortis [per] se
et suos ac omnia sua et suorum bona mobilia et dicti Christoforus Galea et Bernardinus
Truque se et eorum quïlïbet in solidum et suos ac omnia sua et ipsorum insolidum et
suorum bona mobilia curiis, carceribus etarrestis curìarum dominorum Camere apostolice,
auditoris, viceauditoris, vicegerentis locumtenentis et spiritualium et temporalium
Avinionis, Carpenctorensis, Vasionensis, et totius Comitatus Venayssini, dictique
Christoforus Galea et Bernardinus Truque ultra dicta curias, curiis, carceribus et arrestis
curiarum dominorum Arelatensis, Aquensis, Massiliensis conventionum regiarum
Nemensis, Cabeoli, camere rationum Aquensis, Taurinensis, Vercellensis, Astensis,
Mediolanensis et perpactum constitueruntprocuratores suos... [etc...]
Actum Avinione in domo habitationis dicti magistri Joannis Fortis presentibus ibidem
Hostelleto de Costa, factore cartarum diocesis Viennensis, et Pondo Chaberni, furnerio
diocesis Aniciensis, habitatoribus Avinionnis testibus et me Andrea de Villa notario.
Or, machine translation from Depaulis's French:
Paper contract for distinguished master Jean Fort, map maker, bourgeois and resident of Avignon."
In the year of the Nativity of the Lord one thousand five hundred and fifth [1505] and on the 6th day of the month of December, in the presence of me, notary, personally, presented themselves Christophe Galea, merchant of Pignerole [Pinerolo] in the diocese of Turin, paper manufacturer, and Bernardin Truque, card maker of said place of Pinerolo in the same diocese...[...]; they have sold to said master Jean Fort present, namely fifty reams of mejan [note 6] paper for cards, weighing for each ream at least eighteen pounds of Avignon weight, which fifty reams of paper of the aforementioned weight the said Christophe Galea and Bernardin Truque, both together and each of them jointly for themselves and theirs, have promised to pay over, deliver, supply and actually and effectively ship in the present city of Avignon to the same master Jean Fort present or to his family and in his dwelling house. family, [...] by mid-Lent, to come and immediately thereafter, and this for the price and in the name of the price agreed and agreed between them of forty-five florins in current Avignon currency.
Deducting which price, the said Christophe Galea and Bernardin Truque, for themselves and theirs, acknowledged that they had and actually received from the said master Jean Fort present the sum of thirty-four florins in current Avignon currency as a deposit and payment, namely: five pieces of models or moles [molds] of the card-making trade, two grosses of Lyon cards and four dozen cards commonly called taraux, as well as three pounds of pig bristles and the rest in Flanders blue.
[...]For the rest, in truth, the said master Jean Fort, for himself and his, promised to pay to the same Galea and Truque present or to theirs the fifty reams of paper specified above. [.. .]the said parties are mutually obligated, namely: the said Jean Fort [for] himself and his own and [for] all his movable property and the said Christophe Galea and Bernardin Truque [for] themselves and theirs, each of them jointly and severally and for all their movable property and their movable property together jointly and severally to the courts, prisons and judgments of the courts of the lords of the Apostolic Chamber, auditors, vice-auditors, vice-managers, lieutenants both spiritual and temporal of Avignon, Carpentras, Vaison[-la-Romaine], and of the whole of Comtat-Venaissin, and the said Christophe Galea and Bernardin Truque, in addition to the said courts, to the courts, prisons and judgments of the courts of the lords of Arles, Aix[-en-Provence], Marseille, of the royal conventions of Nîmes, Chabeuil [note 8], of the Chamber of Accounts of Aix-en-Provence, Turin, Vercelli, Asti, Milan and by contract have constituted their attorneys... [etc...] [.. .]Done in Avignon in the dwelling house of the said master Jean Fort, being also present Oustalet (de) Lacoste [note 9], card maker, of the diocese of Vienne, and Ponce Chabert, baker of the diocese of Puy [note 10], witnesses residing in Avignon, and me André de Villa notary.
_________________
6. "Median, middle" paper = étresse.
7 "in coloribus perceis Flandrie", where we recognize the Middle French (or Provençal) pers "blue, dark blue".
8 Cabeolum = Chabeuil (Drôme), 11 km east of Valence. Since the cession of Dauphiné to the kings of France (1349), Chabeuil was the seat of a "court of royal conventions" or "rigorous court" - a sort of commercial court - for the entire province (see B. Key, "The Court of Conventions of Chabeuil and the Commission of Valence," in Delivering Justice in Dauphiné from 1453 to 2003, Grenoble, 2003, pp. 41-50).
9 Hostelleto de Costa. Chobaut proposed: "Ancelot de Lacos (Otellet de Couls, de Lascot, de Costis), of the diocese of Vienne (1483-1506)" (p. 40).
10 Aniciensis = Le Puy-en-Velay (Haute-Loire).
Last edited by mikeh on 05 May 2025, 01:59, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Bolognese sequence

339
We also have from the 17th (?)* century:

La Granda de Tarocchini che invita le Sfere Celesti Auree Ferree, e Sotterranee, al Trionfante Applauso Universale del Sig. Andrea Casale

Bologna, Biblioteca dell’Archiginnasio, ms. A. 1920, parte II, c. 1/3

The Grand Ones of Tarocchini who invites the Celestial Spheres, Golden, Iron, and Subterranean to the Triumphant Universal Applause of Signor Andrea Casale

(Translated by ChatGPT)

The Angel with a Resounding Trumpet
At Heaven's Rostrum calls and proclaims
With triple summons to the entire World:
Andrea Casale, noble Bolognese,
Lives — and it is true, not imagined.

At such a great Proclamation were present
The Two Great Luminaries of the Spheres:
On the right, the gilded Sun;
On the left, the silvered Moon.

No more deceits — but rather, triumph!
Let all yield in favor of the triumphant.
The Star that ruled at his nativity
Willed to return him beneath the Roof
Where he was born in his childish age.

But lo! While found beneath the siege
Of mighty Ostend Fortress in Flanders,
He is struck down by enemy hand,
A treacherous musket shot
Piercing his left arm.

Abandoned, and thought lifeless,
His companions believed him dead —
Who found him, who tended his wounds,
Let him himself recount, for he is not dead.

The Devil, thrashing his tail in vain
To make others believe in his demise,
Tries, with cunning, to sway the Traitor
To swear by rites and solemn rites
That are reserved for mortal funerals.

Then, after thirty years in Turkish hands,
From the Congregation of Redemption
He is redeemed—and brought to Rome,
To be displayed with pomp on the Capitol,
Amid a multitude of rescued slaves.

His name, surname, rank, and homeland declared.
Though worn by hardship and long suffering,
With hair turned white, like an old man,
His fate at last, moved by pity,
Lifts him up upon Fortune’s wheel.

And with sheer force against his foes —
For just cause and fair balance —
Almost upon a triumphal chariot
He is led back to his beloved homeland.

Seen again by dear and loving friends,
And by the greatest throng of people.
With joyful brow and heartfelt love,
Popes and Judges, well-informed
By thousands—yes, by thousands—of signs, proofs, and witnesses,
Have declared him to be Andrea Casale,
True in person, real and living.

Not valuing the frivolous arguments
Of the opposing side — a mere Trifler.
Here we conclude a royal Sentence:
It is a wondrous law of the Tarots:
Let him take nothing who tries to play the Fool.

APPLAUSE

The Angel, the World, Sun, Moon, and Star,
Lightning, Devil, Death, and Traitor,
The Old Man, Wheel, Strength, Justice, and Temperance,
Chariot, Love, four Popes with the Trifle,
Together in Rome with the Fool,
Let them sing with universal applause,
And long live, living in life, Andrea Casale.

Source: Article by Andrea Vitali here:
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=870


I am not sure about the dating of the poem, but the mention of the Pope and four Papi suggest a date at least prior to 1725. According to the biography of Andrea Cassali at Treccani, the actual person claiming to be Andrea Cassali was prosecuted as an imposter and died in prison still protesting his identity in 1639, being at odds with the happy ending of the poem may indicate it was written prior to his conviction as an imposter?

The life of Andrea Cassali:



| Year | Event
|----------------|------
| 1584 | Son of Senator Mario and Barbara Malvezzi, born in Bologna on 3 October 1584.
| 1600 | At only sixteen years of age, he made his official entrance into the Senate on 5 October 1600 .
| 1603 | July 3 he left Bologna to join the Italian contingent of the Spanish army.
| 1604 | February - at Ostend in the camp of the troops commanded by Pompeo Giustiniani & enlisted to the company of the Milanese colonel Ludovico Melzi.
| #### | Andrea shot by a musket and left for dead at Ostend.
| #### | August, Felimeo Biancani, his companion in arms, arrived in Bologna with the news of his death and a will in which the deceased named his cousin
| #### | Michele as heir of his estate, valued at 150,000 Roman scudi, who then passed it on to his son Ferrante, who also occupied the senatorial seat.

|c1607 | Letters arrived in Bologna sent by C. to his mother, his cousin Ferrante and his uncle Protesilao Malvezzi, in which he asked to be ransomed,
| #### | but the testimonies of his companions in arms, in particular Biancani and Ippolito Marsili, who claimed to have seen him die & to have taken his remains
| #### | to Bruges to be buried, made the hypothesis that it was a forgery prevail.
| 1615 and 1624 | The family receive testimonies of the existence of a man, detained as a slave in Algiers, who claimed to be Senator C., and Ferrante Casali felt the need
| #### | to collect the official depositions of the men who claimed to have seen his cousin die.

| 1634 | the Fathers of the Madonna della Mercede ransomed a man in Algiers who claimed to be C., and in Bologna the usual poster was posted with the names
| #### | of the ransomed slaves, including that of the Bolognese senator. In Rome, the alleged C. began the process of making himself known, turning to Urban VIII himself,
| #### | whom he had met during the Bologna legation, recalling certain details of meetings they had had at that time. Ferrante Casali through his connections with the
| #### | Roman Curia, has alleged C. arrested as an impostor and forger.

According to the defendant's own version of the facts: he claimed to have been wounded by muske-shot fired by Marsili (one of his cousin's main witnesses) on the orders of Marc'Antonio Malvezzi with whom he was in dispute; then robbed of a "zibato" filled with a large quantity of gold, & abandoned for dead on the field occupied by the enemy. Taken prisoner, he fought for about five years in a fortress with the troops of Maurice of Nassau until he was allowed to return to his homeland... but during the voyage the ship was attacked by the Turks and he was taken into slavery in Barbary, where he remained for twenty-five years.

Despite public opinion and testimonies on behalf of the defendant (as the poet has it : By thousands—yes, by thousands—of signs, proofs, and witnesses,
Have declared him to be Andrea Casale, / True in person, real and living.,) and clear evidence that Ferrante Casali elicited false testimony against the defendant, (as the poet has it, identifying his prosecutors with the 'trifler' and the 'Fool', "They do not value the trifling claims / Of the opposing side a single trifle. / Here we conclude a royal Sentence: / It is the wondrous Law of the Tarot: / Let none gain who seeks to play the Fool.) after a three-year trial, the accused was found guilty and imprisoned. He died in March 1639, maintaining his identity to the end. As the poem says for those who play the fool to lose [identified with the plaintifs] , can we date it to the period of his trial, prior to the guilty verdict & imprisonment?

Source : Biography by Gian Paolo Brizzi, at Trecanni:

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/an ... ografico)/
Last edited by SteveM on 06 May 2025, 16:42, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Bolognese sequence

340
Hello

The order reported by Vitali in the poem Mia Diva is interesting. There is another similar list related to the town of Cesena. I need to look it up. Now I have studied the order of Piscina in 1565 thanks to Pratesi's article. I see that the order of Piscina is the same as the later Vieville decks, but in Piscina the Angel is above the World. This is incorrect in a summary that Filesi published in Spanish, with the World above the Angel for Piscina. It seems that the Vieville order existed in Piedmont (and perhaps also Lombardy) before it evolved into the Marseille order. I believe Mikeh and Wiki mention this, although I must study the lists from Lombardy in detail to verify if the order is truly Vieville. I think that previously, perhaps in Lombardy, there was an order like Mia Diva. I think this looks from Florence (similar to Strambotto) but Vitali say that is similar to Bolognese order becouse of the Charriot with the Love card. This could be an ancient order that existed in various places and that survived in some town near Bologna. That could be the order of the Sola Busca scheme according to Huck (the chariot between love and the three virtues), but the two quintets in the scheme that coincide with the Lucca Tarot are out of order in Sola Busca. Thanks.

There's a confusing detail regarding Avignon 1505. Thanks, MikeH, for sharing the text. Ross and others say that Avignon sent tarot cards to Piedmont. However, I read the text and understand it's the other way around. Am I wrong? According to the 1505 text, a playing card maker in Avignon bought woodblocks and tarot cards from a Piedmont card maker and a Piedmont paper maker. That is, the Italian designs were brought to Avignon. I imagine that after that, that maker possibly sold and shipped decks to Piedmont, as well as perhaps Lombardy and other places, including southern France. I don't see the text explaining this commitment to send decks from Avignon to Piedmont, but we can imagine it because those woodcut blocks were in Avignon since 1505. Correct? I find it strange that Ross misread that when he wrote in Aeclectic about 1505 document. Maybe I have a Spanish translation problem or I am confused.

PD: i have found the reserching tool in THF with my acount open, thanks.

PD2: Mikeh, the Sylvia text-image is in the next link but I dont know where Huck toke the text-image. Sylvia wrote two or more books. This is a good question: Where she wrote about Orfeo Tarot and Lucca Tarot? viewtopic.php?p=23285#p23285
Last edited by Magic Moon on 06 May 2025, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.