Tarot History Forum

This 21 without Popess was connected to the word "Strambotto" and appeared in this forum at December 16 in 2009 in a post of Ross.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=334&p=5295&hilit=strambotto#p5295

"Strambotto" was used in 86 posts ....
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... o&start=80

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For "dal Negro" and "treviso" (or similar) I found, that this is related to a location near to Venice (you had recently asked about it in another thread).

Distance 30 km ... Treviso is in the North of Venice.

Huck wrote: 09 Nov 2024, 23:30 This 21 without Popess was connected to the word "Strambotto" and appeared in this forum at December 16 in 2009 in a post of Ross.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=334&p=5295&hilit=strambotto#p5295

"Strambotto" was used in 86 posts ....
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... o&start=80

**********

For "dal Negro" and "treviso" (or similar) I found, that this is related to a location near to Venice (you had recently asked about it in another thread).

This one:

Strambotto

Miracomãdo aquel angelo pio,
al mõdo al sole alla luna & lostello
alla saetta & aquel diauol rio
la morte el traditore el vechiarello
la rota el caro & guistitia di dio
forteza & temperanza & amor bello
al Papa Imperatore & Imperatrice
al bagatello al matto più felice.

Trentino

Il Mondo
La Giustizia
L'Angelo
Il Sole
La Luna
La Stella
La Saetta
Il Diavolo
La Morte
La Fama
La Traditora
Il Vecchio
La Rota
La Fortezza
L'Amore
Il Carro
Il Papa
L'Imperatore
L'Imperatrice
Il Bagatello
Il Saggio Matto

As I said, except for the intrusion of Carro between Papa & l'Amore, plus B order High Justice, & world high, not Angel. Also Fama between La Morte & La Traditora. Temperance missing but Fama included, another instance of some linking of Temperance with Fama?

Excepting for the common suppression of the Popesse between the two, I think the Strambotti more like Type A Florentine, the Trentino Type B, Ferrara / Venice. As Cordin observes:

"Innanzitutto si osserva che l’ordine delle figure mostrato dalla sequenza trentina, tipico di un ordine di carte da gioco comuni, non è attestato nell’opera pavese, ma solo in quella ferrarese e in quella veneziana."

[First of all, it is observed that the order of the figures shown by the Trentino sequence, typical of an order of common playing cards, is not attested in the Pavia work, but only in the Ferrara and Venetian ones.']

And, for linguistic and cultural reasons favours the influence of Venice over Ferrara.


Trentino = 8 on map, then under Austrian rule:

SteveM wrote: 09 Nov 2024, 20:42

mikeh wrote: 14 Jun 2014, 21:36
3. Leonardo Colombino, ‘Il Trionfo dei Tarocchi’, Trento 1547. B order unless Fame replaces Hanged Man. Temperance, Devil, and Popess absent, Dummett says. [Andrea Vitali at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng has in Italian and English the whole stanza on the Devil, Stanza XIX out of 86 total.]

The link no longer seems to work?

The text, though with some errors and missing stanzas - such as the devil's:
https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=Jr ... &q&f=false

Anyone have a copy of the missing stanza{s} ?

The essay by Andrea Vitali is still available on the Internet Archive
English: https://web.archive.org/web/20210514104 ... 99&lng=eng
Italian: https://web.archive.org/web/20210307044 ... 99&lng=ITA

However, as far as I can tell, Vitali did not transcribe any of the verses directly from the manuscript itself, but instead was relying on transcriptions by others, and those are not necessarily reliable (especially Pietro Larcher, who expurgated the work).

In Il Mondo e l'Angelo (p. 182), Michael Dummett, apparently following Pietro Marsilli ("Quando il cosmo stava nelle carte," L'Adige, August 10, 1989, pp. 22-3), wrote that the original manuscript is in Trento's Biblioteca Comunale, catalogue no. T-II g 499. That library has been progressively digitizing its manuscripts, but unfortunately this one has not yet been added to the online digital collection and I also haven't been able to find a record for it in the online catalogue of Trento's libraries.

At some stage, I want to write an article that will involve this work, and if the library has still not digitized the manuscript at that stage, my intention is to write to them to ask them if they could do so. If you're interested, you could maybe try doing that yourself now.

There is, however, some uncertainty about which library holds the manuscript: in the article by Cordin that you have quoted, she wrote that the manuscript is ms. 49 in the Biblioteca di San Bernardino in Trento (a.k.a. Biblioteca Francescani). But she was working from a transcription by Silvio Devigili in his dissertation Il Trionfo tridentino di Leonardo Colombino (Verona, 1972-1973). Perhaps the manuscript was held at the San Bernardino library in the 1970s but had passed to the Biblioteca Comunale by 1989, or it might have been on loan to the latter in 1989 and is now back in the Biblioteca di San Bernardino?? If it is not in the Biblioteca Comunale, that would explain why it hasn't been digitized yet. On the whole though, it seems most likely that it is in the Biblioteca Comunale, since Dummett/Marsilli quoted a catalogue number for it there.

Nathaniel wrote: 10 Nov 2024, 11:25 There is, however, some uncertainty about which library holds the manuscript: in the article by Cordin that you have quoted, she wrote that the manuscript is ms. 49 in the Biblioteca di San Bernardino in Trento (a.k.a. Biblioteca Francescani). But she was working from a transcription by Silvio Devigili in his dissertation Il Trionfo tridentino di Leonardo Colombino (Verona, 1972-1973). Perhaps the manuscript was held at the San Bernardino library in the 1970s but had passed to the Biblioteca Comunale by 1989, or it might have been on loan to the latter in 1989 and is now back in the Biblioteca di San Bernardino?? If it is not in the Biblioteca Comunale, that would explain why it hasn't been digitized yet. On the whole though, it seems most likely that it is in the Biblioteca Comunale, since Dummett/Marsilli quoted a catalogue number for it there.

Thanks for the links!


According to Guiseppe Sava, professor at the University of Trento, Faculty of Letters and Philosophy, in his monograph "Flemish Tapestries of the Sixteenth Century in the Verses of Leonardo Colombino: Astrology and Cosmography in the Rooms of Bernardo Cles, in «Studi Trentini Arte», 93, 2014, 2, pp. 281-293 :

"Il manoscritto originale è conservato a Trento, presso la Biblioteca Fondazione San Bernardino, ms. 49." However, it is possible he is just quoting the source from Cordin, whose essay he cites.

SteveM wrote: 11 Nov 2024, 09:03
According to Guiseppe Sava, professor at the University of Trento, Faculty of Letters and Philosophy, in his monograph "Flemish Tapestries of the Sixteenth Century in the Verses of Leonardo Colombino: Astrology and Cosmography in the Rooms of Bernardo Cles, in «Studi Trentini Arte», 93, 2014, 2, pp. 281-293 :

"Il manoscritto originale è conservato a Trento, presso la Biblioteca Fondazione San Bernardino, ms. 49." However, it is possible he is just quoting the source from Cordin, whose essay he cites.

Also I found this:

"FBSBTn, ms. 49, Il Trionfo Tridentino di Leonardo Colombino. MDXXXXVII. 1574. 3 Maggio. Il manoscritto riportante la versione autografa del Trionfo Tridentino si presenta come un fascicolo autonomo, rilegato nel primo volume della Biblioteca Tirolese di padre Giangrisostomo Tovazzi, su cui si veda Stenico, Franceschini, Introduzione, pp. 7-18. Dell’operetta di Leonardo Colombino esistono un altro testimone manoscritto, risalente ai primi anni Venti dell’Ottocento, parte della raccolta del barone Antonio Mazzetti e con essa confuito alla Biblioteca Comunale di Trento (BCTn1-167,pp. 375-403), nonché due edizioni integrali a stampa. La prima fu curata nel 1858 da Pietro Larcher quale omaggio per le nozze del cugino Vincenzo con la nobildonna Maria de Ciani (Il Trionfo Tridentino); la seconda, che si confgura essenzialmente come la ristampa di quella pubblicata dal Larcher, fu inserita da Andrea Galante in appendice alle sue conferenze sul Concilio di Trento (Galante, Il Concilio di Trento, pp. 49-63). Rispetto all’originale cinquecentesco, entrambe queste versioni mostrano una veste linguistica che, aggiornata e rimaneggiata secondo i gusti ottocenteschi, si allontana dal dettato dell’autografo della Biblioteca di San Bernardino. Su tale versione risulta invece esemplata l’edizione parziale, comprendente una quarantina di stanze, data alle stampe da Aldo Bertoluzza in occasione del 450° anniversario dall’apertura del Concilio di Trento: Bertoluzza, Il Trionfo Tridentino, 1995. In aggiunta alle opere a stampa ora menzionate, corre l’obbligo di citare le edizioni integrali e fedeli all’originale presentate, nelle loro tesi di laurea, da Silvio Devigili, Il Trionfo Tridentino di Leonardo Colombino, e da Ornella Bolognese, Il Trionfo Tridentino di Leonardo Colombini."

In:

“Sudditi tanto valorosi che le faranno honore né men chari saranno alla sua patria”. I gemelli Innocenzo e Germano a Prato negli anni universitari a Padova e un’inedita lettera di Marco Mantova Benavides a Cristoforo Madruzzo by Massimo Negri

Several other sources [mainly thesis] also cite BFTn [Biblioteca Francescani, Trento] ms 49.

For Biblioteca Tirolese of father Tovazzi see possibly p477 of the archives of the biblioteca san Bernardino:

https://www.bibliotecasanbernardino.it/ ... 1-2023.pdf

Thanks Steve. That article by Negri is from 2018 and he is very definite in his information, so the manuscript must be in the San Bernardino library (the "Fondazione Biblioteca San Bernardino"). I can stop waiting for the Biblioteca Comunale to digitize it.

In the footnote on the first page of Negri's article, it says he is working on a project mirante a meglio definire sia il contesto artistico e socio-culturale dei festeggiamenti del 3 maggio 1547 sia i profili delle famiglie che vi presero parte ("aiming to better define the artistic and socio-cultural context of the celebrations of May 3, 1547 and the profiles of the families who took part"). I haven't yet been able to find any publication of any results of that project, but it certainly sounds interesting.

Nathaniel wrote: 11 Nov 2024, 17:11
I can stop waiting for the Biblioteca Comunale to digitize it.

Maybe the other ms mentioned?

"Dell’operetta di Leonardo Colombino esistono un altro testimone manoscritto, risalente ai primi anni Venti dell’Ottocento, parte della raccolta del barone Antonio Mazzetti e con essa confuito alla Biblioteca Comunale di Trento (BCTn1-167,pp. 375-403), nonché due edizioni integrali a stampa."

?

Nathaniel wrote: 11 Nov 2024, 17:11 Thanks Steve. That article by Negri is from 2018 and he is very definite in his information, so the manuscript must be in the San Bernardino library (the "Fondazione Biblioteca San Bernardino").

It is in the

LIST OF MANUSCRIPTS
SAN BERNARDINO LIBRARY FOUNDATION

here:

ELENCO DEI MANOSCRITTI
FONDAZIONE BIBLIOTECA SAN BERNARDINO

https://www.bibliotecasanbernardino.it/ ... O_2023.pdf

Quote:

49-51. [167-169]. TOVAZZI GIANGRISOSTOMO OFM (1731-1806), Biblioteca tirolese o sia memorie istoriche degli scrittori della contea del Tirolo. Trento 1780-1783: Vol. I, pp. [48]+ 1-472; vol. I, pp. [84] + 399-994, vol. III, pp. [12] + 961-1508 80. In particolare:

49.

1) Lettera di Pietro Ioannezio Molina, più volte Ministro Generale dei Frati Minori, al P. Benedetto Bonelli per l'edizione delle opere di s. Bonaventura: fascicolo-copia inserito prima del titolo del volume di mano del Tovazzi.

2) Il trionfo tridentino di Leonardo Colombino MDXXXXVII, 3 maggio. Codicetto cartaceo del sec. XVI di pp. 44: inserito dopo il precedente. n81

Note 81 : Pubblicato da Vincenzo Larcher, Il trionfo tridentino di Leonardo Colombino. MDXLVII 3 maggio, "Per nozze Larcher-De Ciani", Trento Marietti 1858 (pochi esemplari); Galante Andrea in Il Concilio di Trento. Conferenze. In appendice la ristampa del trionfo Tridentino di Leonardo Colombino, Trento Monauni 1908. Cfr. anche Zenatti Albino, Rappresentazioni sacre nel Trentino, in Archivio per Trieste, l'Istria e il Trentino, II, Roma 1883, pp. 188-193

Zenatti's account [based upon Larcher] can be found on google books from p187 here:
https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=IJ ... &q&f=false