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Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

101 by BOUGEAREL Alain
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Thaks Steve for your contributions.

I'll resume the discussion quoting your post.


1. My understanding too is that the role of the fool as excuse belonged to the classic game, and that a role as highest trump occurred in later games.

YES


2. So, even though it states at the beginning that there are 22 triumphs,

YES

it would be confusing to translate this as 22 trumps,

NO
one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

The paradox is that on one part, it is said to be a Triomphe and on the other part, it isn't a Trump stricto sensu because it cannot take a trick.

That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

Proposition

i do not believe it is a problem of translation as "Trumps" or "Atouts" have the same signification in whatever language.

Maybe could be made a linguistic distingo between :

"Triomphes" as "Trionfi"

"Atouts" as "Trumps"

So we would have 22 "Triomphes" but 21 Atouts or Trumps + L'Excuse



as clearly the Mat, which does not take and cannot be taken, is not a trump; so the 22 triumphs are composed of 21 trumps plus the excuse.

YES



The earliest listings too indicate a special role for the fool, both in Boiardo and in the Steele Sermon, they are referred to as 21 trumps plus the fool.

YES


:-bd

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

102 by SteveM
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Now let's read the seconf paragraphe of the Riles.

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings:


La beauté de ce jeu est d’avoir force triomphes et principalement les hautes avec le Monde, le Mat, le Bateleur, et quelques Rois : par ce qu’avec les triomphes on surmonte tous les efforts des quatre couleurs, quand on fait des coupes.

The beauty of this game is to have strong/many triumphs and mainly the higher with the World, the Mat, the Magician, and some kings: because with the triumphs we overcome all the efforts of four colors, when making cuts.

Principally, but clearly not solely, the high ones, XXI and the Four Kings are the highest of their suits (taking the term 'suits' to include the suit of trumps.) The Bagat, to the contrary, is the lowest/smallest (le petit). The Mat is neither high nor low, but special in terms of its function. Having the Fool or XXI is a matter of luck, if you're dealt them, you get to keep them (XXI is bound to win the trick, and the player of the Fool gets to keep it). The bagat on the other hand, as the lowest, requires strategy to keep or capture. One may be tempted to picture the 'Triumphs in a circle, and say that the Mat between the Bagat and the World makes it 22, or 0 (nulla) according to whatever your preferences lead... a circular argument, so to speak.
Last edited by SteveM on 23 Jul 2016, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

103 by BOUGEAREL Alain
SteveM wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Now let's read the seconf paragraphe of the Riles.

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings:


La beauté de ce jeu est d’avoir force triomphes et principalement les hautes avec le Monde, le Mat, le Bateleur, et quelques Rois : par ce qu’avec les triomphes on surmonte tous les efforts des quatre couleurs, quand on fait des coupes.

The beauty of this game is to have strong/many triumphs and mainly the higher with the World, the Mat, the Magician, and some kings (clearly not trumps!, but the meaning contextually clear as to being the highest of their own suits): because with the triumphs we overcome all the efforts of four colors, when making cuts.

Principally, but clearly not solely, the high ones, XXI and the Four Kings are the highest of their suits (taking the term 'suits' to include the suit of trumps.) The Bagat, to the contrary, is the lowest/smallest (le petit). The Mat is neither high nor low, but special in terms of its function. Having the Fool or XXI is a matter of luck, if you're dealt them, you get to keep them (XXI is bound to win the trick, and the player of the Fool gets to keep it). The bagat on the other hand, as the lowest, requires strategy to keep or capture. One may be tempted to picture the 'Triumphs in a circle, and say that the Mat between the Bagat and the World makes it 22, or 0 (nulla) according to whatever your preferences lead... a circular argument, so to speak.



Litteraly, we have the 3 ENDS "along with the High ones (High Trumps)" in the following ordinal sequence :

WORLD (21) MATH (L' Excuse) and = ET the BAGAT ( Le Petit)

Personnal conclusion : The World ( Le 21) being 21st , Math is necessaraly 22nd and the Math or Le Petit the Small 1st

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

104 by BOUGEAREL Alain
The French Rules describes the 78 cards as 5 "suits": one of 22 triomphes and 4 "peintures ou couleurs" from King to Ace.

The Kings are part of the Seven Tarots alons with the the 4 Ends : Monde, Math et Petit

The old French "les quatre peintures" is another typical expression of "les quatre couleurs" = the four suits.

The Rules of the Tarots qualify the four suits as "Colours", but "colour" for in English has a separate and different meaning. The modern international 52-card pack has four suits but only two colours - red and black. The red cards are hearts and diamonds, the black cards clubs and spades. To speak in English about colours in a Tarot pack is confusing, since most of the cards are multi-coloured. Whilst in four-suited games where one of the suits is designated as trumps, there is unfortunately no generally understood English word for suits that are not trumps (the somewhat clumsy "non-trump suits" is probably the best we have), Tarot players have the advantage of being able to use "trumps" for the special cards and "suits" for the four suits that are not trumps. The Germans have the word "Fehlfarbe" for a non-trump suit and some Americans of German descent have adapted this to "fail-suit", but this term would not be understood except by players of the games that use this term. Anyway, German-speaking Tarock players use "Farben" for the four suits, just as the French use "couleurs". In France, the use of "couleurs" for the four suits seems to be completely standard, both in modern texts and in texts from the time when Italian suited cards were still commonly used - for example the "Règles du jeu de tarots", Besançon, 1862 says that the pack consists of "22 atouts et 4 couleurs de 14 sujets chacun. Les couleurs sont: epées, bâtons, deniers (ou roses), et coupes."

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

105 by SteveM
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Litteraly, we have the 3 ENDS "along with the High ones (High Trumps)" in the following ordinal sequence :

WORLD (21) MATH (L' Excuse) and = ET the BAGAT ( Le Petit)

Personnal conclusion : The World ( Le 21) being 21st , Math is necessaraly 22nd and the Math or Le Petit the Small 1st
Not sure where the literal(?) '3 ends' is mentioned?

There maybe 2 ends? The World (XXI) and Le Petit (I), with the Mat (here, there and everywhere) in between.

As I read it, to paraphrase, its says a strong (hand of) triumphs (many triumphs), mainly the higher ones (obviously), along with the world, the fool, the Bagat and some kings...:

Reading it, if you like, as an 'ordinal sequence', then we may say the fool is after the world (the world, the fool) , before the bagat (the fool, the bagat), and between them both!

Here, there & everywhere!

I supposed one might say, the fool forks them both (force triomphes?).

:)
Last edited by SteveM on 23 Jul 2016, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

106 by Huck
SteveM wrote: Well for example, if say you had Fool plus trump XX, and XXI has not been played, then it would make sense to play fool first, to fish out the XXI so you can play XX next?
hm ... I understood, that the second player of the trick has then the right to chose what he wants and his card decides the progress. He needn't to trump the Fool. Naturally the game situation is different, if 3 or 4 players are in the game.

In the Ottocento rules the rule-explainer states: "If the Matto is ever led then the second player determines the suit of the trick." This sounds, as if it is a rather rare case in this game, that the Matto is led.
https://www.pagat.com/tarot/ottocen.html

Alain:
The Germans have the word "Fehlfarbe" for a non-trump suit and some Americans of German descent have adapted this to "fail-suit", but this term would not be understood except by players of the games that use this term.
Fehlfarbe means in German "cards, which are not trump", not "card suits, which are not trump". Most game rules know cards, which are defined as trump independent from the suit, for instance "all Jacks are trumps" is very common in Germany. Doppelkopf has as trump definition "all Queens, all Jacks, all remaining diamond cards and the two 10s of heart are trump", and all others belong to the Fehlfarbe.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

108 by SteveM
Huck wrote:
SteveM wrote: Well for example, if say you had Fool plus trump XX, and XXI has not been played, then it would make sense to play fool first, to fish out the XXI so you can play XX next?
hm ... I understood, that the second player of the trick has then the right to chose what he wants and his card decides the progress. He needn't to trump the Fool. Naturally the game situation is different, if 3 or 4 players are in the game.
In some versions, the person who lays the fool can declare the suit. In other versions, where the second player declares, the strategy is riskier (and of little use at all if there are only two players); you take the risk that the second player does not declare a suit the person with the trump has, and will thus play it to win the trick. A strategy I should imagine that would be very rarely used, but possible.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

109 by SteveM
Re: Notes to the rules of the 1637 game:
(2) The French text uses "Faon" for Jack, instead of the usual word "Valet". This word "Faon", possibly derived from "Fante", the Italian word for Jack, is not used in any other card game description.
It is also used by D. Marolles (again? same writer of the rules?) in his Ballet des Armoiries où fe trouve compris celui des Cartes & des Tarots 1657, seemingly as an alternative to Valets when referring to tarot cards:

IX ENTRÉE Les quatre Valets de Cartes communes, habillés avec les marques qu’ils portent, de Coeur, de Carreau, de Trefle & de Pique, représentant la Hire, Lancelot du Lac, Oger le Danois, & Galaor: on pourra, si l’on veut, les faire combattre avec les Valets ou les Faons des Tarots...,


IX ENTRY Four common Valet cards, dressed with their trademarks they carry, Heart, Tile, Clover & Pike, representing Hire, Lancelot, Oger the Dane, and Galaor: you can, if you will, make them fight with Valets or Faons of the Tarot,
(3) The cryptic old French "quand il s'en rencontre de toutes les livrées" has been understood by the French readers specific of the "numerical cards of the suits" but one could also accept grammaticaly that the word "livrées" meant originally the court cards : "principally when a player's hand contains cards of every suit with few trumps"...
he continues:

...qu ils chasseront de vive force, avec tout ce qui porte leurs livrées, pour faire place aux Entrées suivantes.

...that they will drive by force, with all bringing their liveries, to make room for the following entries.

Which suggests to me that livrées refers to the suit signs as they apply to being part of the liveries (regalia) of the court (coat) cards.

However, the sense of the rules suggests it is the lesser, numeric suit cards that are being referred to, rather than the coat-cards.




C. P. Goujet in his Memoires avec des notes historiques et critiques
Last edited by SteveM on 23 Jul 2016, 23:47, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

110 by Huck
SteveM wrote:
It is also used by D. Marolles (again? same writer of the rules?) in his Ballet des Armoiries où fe trouve compris celui des Cartes & des Tarots, seemingly as an alternative to Valets when referring to tarot cards:

IX ENTRÉE Les quatre Valets de Cartes communes, habillés avec les marques qu’ils portent, de Coeur, de Carreau, de Trefle & de Pique, représentant la Hire, Lancelot du Lac, Oger le Danois, & Galaor: on pourra, si l’on veut, les faire combattre avec les Valets ou les Faons des Tarots...,
Michel de Marolles

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=611&p=8881&hilit=marolles#p8881

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=751&p=10705&hilit=marolles#p10705
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