Tarot History Forum

SteveM wrote:Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.

The fool as excuse does not take and cannot be taken - ergo, it is not a trump in the English sense of the word. The role of the Mat clearly differs from that of the 21 other 'triumphs' in the 1637 rules. 21 triumphs that can take or be taken, and 1 that acts as an 'excuse'.

Same reference:

http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

Well , yes and no.
If the definition if a Trump is that it can take and be taken ...

Le 21

C'est l'atout le plus fort du jeu, cela signifie que c'est une carte imprenable. Le possesseur de cette carte est sûr de faire au moins un pli.

The 21 cannot be taken....

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:
Well , yes and no.
If the definition if a Trump is that it can take and be taken ...

The 21 cannot be taken....

That is why I wrote 'or', not 'and'.

SteveM wrote:

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:
Well , yes and no.
If the definition if a Trump is that it can take and be taken ...

The 21 cannot be taken....

That is why I wrote 'or', not 'and'.

OK

SteveM wrote:I am not sure as to how old the rule is, but you can certainly play the Fool as first card in modern games I have seen, at which one either declares what suit it is, or such is decided by the card next played.

Yes, you're right, my memory mixed possibly something. It just doesn't make much sense to play it as first card, since you don't take the excuse advantage.

Thaks Steve for your contributions.

I'll resume the discussion quoting your post.


1. My understanding too is that the role of the fool as excuse belonged to the classic game, and that a role as highest trump occurred in later games.

YES


2. So, even though it states at the beginning that there are 22 triumphs,

YES

it would be confusing to translate this as 22 trumps,

NO
one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

The paradox is that on one part, it is said to be a Triomphe and on the other part, it isn't a Trump stricto sensu because it cannot take a trick.

That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

Proposition

i do not believe it is a problem of translation as "Trumps" or "Atouts" have the same signification in whatever language.

Maybe could be made a linguistic distingo between :

"Triomphes" as "Trionfi"

"Atouts" as "Trumps"

So we would have 22 "Triomphes" but 21 Atouts or Trumps + L'Excuse



as clearly the Mat, which does not take and cannot be taken, is not a trump; so the 22 triumphs are composed of 21 trumps plus the excuse.

YES



The earliest listings too indicate a special role for the fool, both in Boiardo and in the Steele Sermon, they are referred to as 21 trumps plus the fool.

YES

SteveM wrote:

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: 4. That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

5. It can be played at any moment of the game to excuse oneself but must be played on the last trick un case of Sclem : it is tje only way to win AALL the tricks.

Not sure about that, a player with a lot of trumps in their hands and few colours could theoretically win all the tricks without the Mat in their hand. Probably about as rare as by playing Mat last, but nonetheless possible.

It is the ONLY way to make a Great Sclem if you have the Excuse in your game... you must play it LAST

Cf http://www.fftarot.fr/assets/documents/R-RO201206.pdf

Huck wrote:

SteveM wrote:I am not sure as to how old the rule is, but you can certainly play the Fool as first card in modern games I have seen, at which one either declares what suit it is, or such is decided by the card next played.

Yes, you're right, my memory mixed possibly something. It just doesn't make much sense to play it as first card, since you don't take the excuse advantage.

Well for example, if say you had Fool plus trump XX, and XXI has not been played, then it would make sense to play fool first, to fish out the XXI so you can play XX next?

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

Being included does not mean it is counted as either first or last or anywhere in between, as the Italian proverb has it, Like the fool of the tarot, here there and everywhere.

Why is the fool of the tarot like the letter H?

Quando l'h si trova in mezzo di lettera o in fine come s è detto di sopra alla lettera g ci serve, come il matto ne tarocchi, per comodo di qual che altra lettera la di cui pronunzia sarebbe a gran pena determinata senza l'assistenza di questo segno.

A Grammar of the Italian Language: With a Copious Praxis of Moral Sentences, 1778.

SteveM wrote:

Huck wrote:

SteveM wrote:I am not sure as to how old the rule is, but you can certainly play the Fool as first card in modern games I have seen, at which one either declares what suit it is, or such is decided by the card next played.

Yes, you're right, my memory mixed possibly something. It just doesn't make much sense to play it as first card, since you don't take the excuse advantage.

Well for example, if say you had Fool plus trump XX, and XXI has not been played, then it would make sense to play fool first, to fish out the XXI so you can play XX next?

Why is the fool of the tarot like the letter H?

Quando l'h si trova in mezzo di lettera o in fine come s è detto di sopra alla lettera g ci serve, come il matto ne tarocchi, per comodo di qual che altra lettera la di cui pronunzia sarebbe a gran pena determinata senza l'assistenza di questo segno.

A Grammar of the Italian Language: With a Copious Praxis of Moral Sentences, 1778.

HI Huck and Steve
A little confusion I believe.
"Si la première carte d'une levée est l'Excuse, c'est la carte suivante qui
détermine la couleur jouée.

L'Excuse ne permet pas de réaliser une levée (sauf en cas de Chelem), mais
elle reste la propriété du camp qui la détient. Celui qui l'a jouée récupère
l'Excuse et l'incorpore dans le tas des plis qu'il a déjà fait. Il y prend une carte
sans valeur (basse carte en couleur ou Atout) qu'il donne au camp qui a
remporté le pli pour remplacer l'Excuse. Si le camp du joueur n'a pas encore
remporté de plis, il met l'Excuse en évidence et donnera une carte à l'autre camp
dès qu'il en aura l'occasion.
 En cas de Chelem réussi par le camp preneur ne possédant pas l'Excuse, cette
carte jouée normalement reste la propriété de la Défense et compte pour 4

SteveM wrote:

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

"Being included"
YES

"does not mean it is counted as either first or last or anywhere in between"

NO

, as the Italian proverb has it, Like the fool of the tarot, here there and everywhere.

That's another question but maybe yes but that's not the actual discussion : MONDE MATH ET BAGAT

MATH after World AND Bagat

We're progressing.

Now let's read the seconf paragraphe of the Rules.

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings: because with trumps one overcomes all the efforts of the four suits(4), when one makes voids in them [5]. And by means of the World, Math, Bagat and the Kings, one is paid as many tokens [6] as one can win by playing them, so they are called "Tarots par excellence" [7]. And whenever they appear in the game, tribute must be paid for them, or they themselves are forced to pay a ransom if they fall into the hands of their enemies, in other words a player who loses one of them has to pay a token to each opponent [8].


Litteraly, we have the 3 END along with the High ones (High Trumps) in the following ordinal sequence :

WORLD (21) MATH (L' Excuse) and = ET the BAGAT ( Le Petit)

Personnal conclusion : The Word ( Le 21) being 21st , Math is necessaraly 22nd and the Math or Le Petit the Small 1st