Tarot History Forum

The similarity in backcards is enigmatic and exciting, we have the example of Noblet, Vieville and the Anonymous one of Paris -TY for the backcard Robert!-, three originating decks of Paris within a same time interval:

Noblet (1650) / Vieville (1643 - 1664) / AdP (first half of century XVII)

Also we found in the decks of Chosson and both Payen -TY for the link of the Universisade of Yale Compañero Eugim!- great similarity in his backcards:

Chosson (1672 -?-) / Payen (1713) / Payen (1743)

Flornoy says to some interesting things in these links:

* http://www.letarot.com/Jean-Pierre-Payen/index.html
* http://www.letarot.com/jean-dodal/index.html

Also we find in the cases of Chosson and both Payen a different pattern regarding the case of Dodal even as it was said both Payen and Dodal was done by the same engraver.

Dodal (1701)

What do you think about this subject ?

This is quite an important topic, in my view, and one that only periodically surfaces!

So thanks for raising it...

Personally, I suspect that the backs of cards shows the paper/cardboard manufacturer, producing it, of course, for card makers, and that these may be the same as the card-printing house or different.

For example, I can well imagine that card producers in Paris in 1650 may all purchase their stock from the same local supplier, who may or may not have his stock 'pre-printed' on one side.

This is an area I'd certainly like to see historical research from those who have access to such.

Great topic lamort, and what a clever suggestion Jean-Michel, the thought has never occurred to me before but it would be an excellent explanation.

Off the top of my head, I wonder if taxes might have anything to do with it too? That the paper is marked to show that taxes were paid in a certain area? Maybe it was just pride of area?

Jean Noblet and Jacques Vieville sharing the same back isn't a surprise considering the time and place, both in Paris around 1650. With the Tarot de Paris also in the same location (although at a suggested date of "early 1600s"), I suppose it isn't a stretch to see how the same papermaker could be using the same mark for several decades.

The Payen-Chosson-Dodal question is interesting. We know that Payen originally came from Marseille, so if we assume that Chosson did as well it might explain why they share a background (and lead me to wonder about the dating of the Chosson again). Perhaps when the Dodal was created in Lyon the backs matched the territory there?

How can we explore this?

Yes I am agree,a great topic bring to us Lamort.
And not fully investigated yet anywhere.
Also Robert I think the backs helps us to investigate the date of a deck given.
The Chosson date "problem" is of course one to keep us on moving...
Even if I am not convinced about the date of 1672 I have to admit the evidence of the pattern IIX/LE PENDV
I dont want to be off topic here,so now I will post it at the Chosson thread.

Au revoir...

For example we have the case of the Conver existing at the BNF.
Heron did a reproduction of it as we know,and I expect it matched also the back
There it is :

EUGIM wrote:For example we have the case of the Conver existing at the BNF.
Heron did a reproduction of it as we know,and I expect it matched also the back
There it is :

I'm not sure of this. It might be, but it really doesn't look like it, do you think so? Conver is late (1760) so I suppose it might have changed so much. I have the reproduction of the Bicentenial deck and I think the backs are plain. I'm away from home now and will check when I return in a few days, unless someone else can check. Is there any information on the Camoin website?

Yves said to me that the one at the BNF is post 1808

From Marseille Tarot City to rest of WWW Wild Wide World,

Hello Boys and Girls !!

For Conver we do need to get a real 1760 dated deck to see his back.

BnF /Heron Fac similé is post dated probably 1808 . About.

Anyway I am in contact to get a picture of his back made by BnF.
I will informs only this Forum about my result. In comments only and no pictures for legal reasons of course.

I bet that Heron back is not the real thing. We will see soon.

Backs are really interesting for dating...But this matter is rather difficult because on same period we have various backs in same place for different cardmakers.

But I smell it well.

We need to accumulate guenuine historical decks and to add a piece of Communism to our Capitalist way of Collecting decks as to achieve this task Ha ha !!

Are you ready ?

Yves