Tarot History Forum

Two further new articles of Franco Pratesi:

1440 - STUDIES ON GIUSTO GIUSTI, 09.07.2012
http://trionfi.com/es47
*** about Giusto Giusti and the now oldest Trionfi document from September 1440

IN SEARCH OF TAROT SOURCES - AFTER 15 YEARS, 11.07.2012
http://trionfi.com/es48
*** about 14th century texts, which were distributed in the 1420s and 1430s, together with some general influences of 15th century.

Huck wrote:Two further new articles of Franco Pratesi:

1440 - STUDIES ON GIUSTO GIUSTI, 09.07.2012
http://trionfi.com/es47
*** about Giusto Giusti and the now oldest Trionfi document from September 1440

IN SEARCH OF TAROT SOURCES - AFTER 15 YEARS, 11.07.2012
http://trionfi.com/es48
*** about 14th century texts

Nice review of the forum in there...

robert wrote:Nice review of the forum in there...

Well, perhaps a way to get some more serious researchers into these halls here. Perhaps some other webmasters here could make similar attempts.

Huck wrote:

robert wrote:Nice review of the forum in there...

Well, perhaps a way to get some more serious researchers into these halls here. Perhaps some other webmasters here could make similar attempts.

Hi Huck,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this... Could you be more specific?

robert wrote:

Huck wrote:

robert wrote:Nice review of the forum in there...

Well, perhaps a way to get some more serious researchers into these halls here. Perhaps some other webmasters here could make similar attempts.

Hi Huck,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this... Could you be more specific?

:-) ... btw .... happy birthday

... well, a small advertising campaign, just with remarks of the webmaster, that visitors could possibly speak with the relevant webmaster at the Tarothistory.Forum.

Webmasters ... I judge from our own rather seldom posts ... seldom get dialogs with the visiting public, though this interest might be given on the side of the visitors, at least occasionally. Likely not everybody knows, that one could address [email protected] and not everybody finds a contact button.

In a sort of other world ...

http://www.camoin.com/tarot-forum/?sid= ... 5793c7646c

... the Forum of Camoin exists. I'm surprised to see, that it has considerable traffic. It is multilingual, which is an interesting aspect.

French: maybe about 125.000 posts
Spanish: maybe about 3.500 posts
Italian: maybe about 35.000 posts
English: about 600 posts

I don't recognize very much historical topics.

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After the death of Hajo Banzhaf his successful German language Forum has declared the older material to "closed topics" (but still available), and a new Forum has opened with meanwhile c. 50.000 posts.

http://www.tarot.de/tarot-forum/

Tarot history questions are VERY rare. In the older forum (c. 200.000 posts) I had some articles there.
http://www.tarot.de/forum/ubbthreads.php

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Aeclectic notes meanwhile 3,030,972 posts.
The historical section (the 5 special forums) has about 80.000 posts

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The Tarot collectors Forum has meanwhile about 20.000 posts
http://www.tarotcollectors.com/
... here Tarot history occasionally occurs.

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Are there other remarkable Forums elsewhere?

Interesting older German source... I don't recognize all references:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xTgT ... el&f=false
Stædtewesen des Mittelalters
Vol 4
Karl Dietrich Hüllmann
1829

Page 246, article: Glücksspiele

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Same text:

An interesting report from Milan in 1326, which gives evidence of some early popularity of the 3 Holy Kings in Milan (as far I know, it's generally assumed, that the 3 Holy kings were popular North of the Alps, but not in Italy).
p. 243



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In the same series (Vol. 1) Hüllmann had a passage about playing cards:





He notes, that in 1361 "Lettrenes" were transported from Nürnberg to Flandern (he gives a reference). Hüllmann has doubts, that "Lettrenes" were playing cards or if these are saint pictures.
He speculates on a military meaning of the German suits. For unknown reason he notes "Trumpf is Triumph" (he gives no reference).

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id ... =GBS.PA382
You need to sign in with a Google-account to use this link (which is free)

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I found this text of 1837, which contradicts the "Lettrenes" suspicion of Hüllmann. "Lettrenes" is identified as a reading error.

http://books.google.de/books?id=IW4MAAA ... es&f=false

The author of this critique is nobody else but Sotzmann, whom I earlier met as the excellent writer of an article about lot books (c. 1850. Here is the title of this earlier work (1837).



It starts at p. 449 and goes till 599 ... so also a longer work.

Francio Pratesi has written a few new articles.

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One of them reports a new Trionfi note of the year 1462. The trader Cambini sends 96 Trionfi decks to Venice.

This is by far the earliest "highest number of decks" in all older Trionfi documents, preceding the "higher number" 309 decks in an import document to Rome from the year 1464. Older highest number were occasionally 12 and in one case 13, all belonging to the period, when the statistic of the silk dealer notes a peak of Trionfi card productions in the early 1450s. "12" appears more often, as it seems, that relative cheap Trionfi cards (9 soldi, so not really cheap) were traded commonly in dozens.

1462 – CARDS AND TRIUMPHS IN A CAMBINI SHIPMENT TO VENICE
http://trionfi.com/cambino-trade-venice

This article is also of importance, as it one of only few Trionfi notes for Venice.

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Another silk trader in the year 1456. The number of decks is very small and the action does not include Trionfi decks ... and other playing card trades are not known. The document is of interest, as the trade included also other playing material.

1456 – CURIOUS SHIPMENTS BY ANDREA BANCHI
http://trionfi.com/andrea-banchi

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Franco Pratesi about the relationship between Chess and Tarot and about opinions to the theme.

CHESS AND PLAYING CARDS, TAROT INCLUDED - SELECTED OPINIONS
http://trionfi.com/chess-tarot-playing-cards

The article will get a commentary, which for the moment isn't included.

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A short older article of 1987

ANCIENT CARD TRICKS WITH MINCHIATE
http://trionfi.com/minchiate-magic

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Not from Franco Pratesi and not about playing cards, but a review of Franco Pratesi's "more-than-100-pages-work" about the History of Go in Europe.

FRANCO PRATESI ABOUT GO
http://trionfi.com/eurogo

Huck wrote:
CORRECTION: The date of the Cambini shipment is 19th February 1462, not 1461

One of them reports a new Trionfi note of the year 1461[= 1462]. The trader Cambini sends 96 Trionfi decks to Venice.

This is by far the earliest "highest number of decks" in all older Trionfi documents, preceding the "higher number" 309 decks in an import document to Rome from the year 1464. Older highest number were occasionally 12 and in one case 13, all belonging to the period, when the statistic of the silk dealer notes a peak of Trionfi card productions in the early 1450s. "12" appears more often, as it seems, that relative cheap Trionfi cards (9 soldi, so not really cheap) were traded commonly in dozens.

1461 [=1462] – CARDS AND TRIUMPHS IN A CAMBINI SHIPMENT TO VENICE
viewforum.php?f=11

This article is also of importance, as it one of only few Trionfi notes for Venice.

I've corrected the earlier post.

There's a new article to a new finding of Franco Pratesi, this time about an user of playing cards called Trionfi and it's the earliest (5 August 1451) known common-people-user, a notary Ser Giovanni Bandini with not very much income.

http://trionfi.com/notary-ser-giovanni-bandini

"A dì detto per 1° paio di trionfi per mio spasso s. 12"

He bought one pair of cards for his own fun and he paid 12 Soldi.

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During the editorial work it was noted, that we know not enough, what else one could get for 12 Soldi in 1451. So that's surely a theme.

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Also a list was made, which includes all new documents, which have appeared in the last year since November 2011 in the period 1440-1462. There are 65 new entries, 63 found by Franco Pratesi, one by Thierry Depaulis (oldest Trionfi document 1440), another one by Veber Gulinelli, who controlled the Franceschini records, and found one, which was overlooked (1460).

Earlier existed something between 31-35 (it depends, how one counts them). 27-28 were collected in 2003, mainly on base of Ortalli's work "Prince and the playing cards" for the period 1442-1463, 4 were added in the meantime 2004-2011. Roughly estimated we have won 200% more documents (for the mentioned period) in the last-year-period 2011-2012 ... and the number of all documents (for the mentioned period) is near to "100".