Added March 2017: The thread developed in 2011, actually starting in the thread to the Lorenzo Spirito lot book ..
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442#p5691
The theme was revived recently (December 2016), cause the original work of Bollstatter was detected in the web.

Then I thought, it would be nice to create some overview to help new readers ...
The following lot book objects are discussed in this thread:

The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot" ; theme lotbook (started 21 Feb 2011)

Start: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=9888#p9888
1. Fränkisches Losbuch (1425-50)
online: http://www.bildindex.de/document/obj00022941#|home
2. Lot book version of c. 1520, in Landshut printed by Johann Weißenburger
online: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1
3a. Bollstatter lot book collection (Cgm 312) ... between them a text with big similarities to 1. and 2.
online: https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en
Description of Cgm 312:
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 95_JPG.htm
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 96_JPG.htm
This is the MAJOR TOPIC of the thread: The online edition wasn't known at the beginning of the thread. It's discussion starts at ... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=18365&hilit= ... ter#p18365
Before the text was studied by Nr. 2 (version of 1520)
--
Other relatives to the 3 lot books above:
4. Trier version (Hs. 1121/1325)
Description: https://books.google.de/books?id=-itYVP ... &q&f=false
appeared in the discussion at ... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=9888&hilit=trier#p9888
5. Splendor Solis ... a very distant relation
appeared in the discussion at ... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=9908&hilit=splendor#p9908
6a. Heidelberger version with 32 animals instead of 22 (Cod. Pal. germ. 7)
online: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... fc1c30dacc
appeared in the discussion at ... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=15544&hilit= ... erg#p15544
6b. Olmützer Losbuch, very similar to the Heidelberger version with 32 animals
appeared in the discussion at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=80#p19164
reported by Leopold Zatocil: the article of Leopold Zatocil is online (German language) as a pdf-file
One gets it, if one searches for keyword "SpisyFF_131-1968-1_3.pdf"
--
Other lot books mentioned in this thread:
7. Another lot book system (system 16-16-16-16) described in Cgm 312 at 120r-143v
discussed at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=50#p18395
description: http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 00_JPG.htm
online (start): https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=es
8. Bolte takes No. 7 as similar to a lot book "Geomantia" of 1532
online: https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... riff=&l=en
dicussed at the end of post viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=50#p18395
9. Babylonian lot book 177/78 BC
discussed at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=20#p9935
reported at: http://www.persee.fr/doc/syria_0039-794 ... _33_1_5177
"Ein Losbuch in Keilschrift aus der Seleukidenzeit" by Ernst Weidner, Syria Année 1956 Volume 33 Numéro 1 pp. 175-183
10. "Sepher Goraloth" by Ahitophel and others
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=80#p19147

********************************

Start of the original article:

There are two lot book appearances of the motif "pope with donkey".

1. Fränkisches Losbuch (c. 1426-1450)
Material to Fränkisches Losbuch
http://www.bildindex.de/dokumente/html/ ... 2941#|home
Note: Not all pictures belong to the lot book. The lot book starts in the 5th row with the right picture and contains totally 13 pictures (last picture is the pope, the first is the lion)
The text is fragmented and in rather bad shape. The lot book is collected inside a MS with other texts.
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preußischer Kulturbesitz, Inventar-Nr. Ms. germ. fol. 642

2. Lot book version of c. 1520, in Landshut printed by Johann Weißenburger
Printed Text is given here:
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1

I talked about this already at the Lorenzo Spirito thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442&start=40
... but after one-day work on this topic I see the higher relevance of this detection.

It deserves an own point. Somehow it is a sort of "oldest Tarot", though naturally with some doubts:

The owner of the very fragmented text of the Fränkische Losbuch seems to tell, that it belongs to the second quarter of 15th century, somewhere else I captured the existence of an opinion, which dates it to the 3rd quarter of 15th century. Both opinions I register with some personal doubts.
The same text (as far this was controllable to me in the short research) with similar pictures and the same order of the essential elements of the divination system (as far as this was controllable) was printed by Johann Weißenburger in c. 1520. My doubts about a correct dating are raised by the condition, that the text in the printed version of 1520 is possibly really taken, as it had been before, so somehow 1:1 with no changes (my research to this point was only small, so this statement might be an error, and naturally, the text is also observable in very fragmented form). As the German language in this time seems to rather floating, I'm surprised by this condition. But I'm really not an expert, so - for the moment - there's the opinion of the people, who surely have a better overview than me.
If the dating 1426-1450 is correct, than the object, displayed in two versions, reaches in the time, when the Trionfi cards were formed.
A lot of argumentation was done (by myself and Trionfi.com), that the original system of the Trionfi hadn't been based on the number 22, but on versions with 14 or 16 trumps. In this lot book versions, however, we without doubt meet a system based on the number 22.

I was aware (before yesterday) of a version with similar structure, found in the lot book collection of Conradus Bollstatter, made between 1450-1473. The related version (the first system described in this collection) is clearly related to the year 1450. It is similar in structure (based on 22) and also text (with slight contradictions), as far this can be seen by the descriptions of cgm 312 as given here ..

http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/h ... 95_JPG.htm
http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/h ... 96_JPG.htm

.. by Karin Schneider and additionally by Sotzmann in the Serapeum in 1850 ...
compare
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442
... and search for Bollstatter

That's 3x the same or rather similar object.

A 4th text (located in Trier) I found yesterday with varied content and made at begin of 16th century, but also with Pope (Nr. 22) and Emperor (Nr. 21).
http://books.google.com/books?id=-itYVP ... &q&f=false
Hs. 1121/1325
In this the 22 animals are the same (not clear is the order)
The 22 prophets might be the same.
The kings are varied towards German nobility and cities or regions with a possible focus on Cologne/Trier/Mainz - likely Mainz as the 5th highest figure behind Pope (22) and Emperor (21) and Cardinal (20) and King (19), after Mainz follow the 6 other Kurfürsten in the row.

A figure "Wildaman" (= wild man) ...

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Mann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

... a well known and often used figure, which also appeared on playing cards, here by Meister E.S. ...
... takes the lowest position (Nr.1), followed by an edelman (2) and an [assumed] knight (3) with (near) localities or nobility with increasing rank, so a variation of the pattern to increase the importance of somebody - likely of the archbishop of Mainz, which in the critical time was possibly Albert (von Hohenzollern) von Mainz ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_of_Mainz

... a man, who by his cooperation with the Ablass-collector Tetzel possibly caused the following reformation.

*************************

As long I did knew only of the version of Conradus Bollstatter, his report might have referred to a very small production, but with this 3 other surviving similar works this German 22-22-22-22 lot book system gets the suggestion, that it had been a broad tradition - this naturally changes the perspective and its relation to other well known productions like ..

a. the Karnöffel game, which also uses Emperor, Pope, Devil (wild man ? Trier version ?) and occasionally cardinal as Karnöffel (the Trier version knows the cardinal as 3rd figure ... in a card game this might be the Unter-position)

b. The German Quaternionenadler and this same context the 1st Murner deck of 1502 with some heraldic system

c . The chess iconography of Cessolis

d. the Tarot in its final form with also 22 elements as trumps.

e. The deck, which was recently discussed as a new finding, related to the Nurremberg chronicle of 1493, which by its use of dice results indicated the use of at least 21 symbols ...



******************************

Alright ... that's a sort of revolution, a really new factor in the calculations.

Here are the basics of this "rather old Tarot", in its basic version: 22 elements, each with a number, each with a prophet, each with a king, each with an "animal" (which are occasionally zodiac signs) and each with a theme (which is given by the question). I give the original question, and I translate it, then I give the prophet, then the king and then the animal:

(Added 3 years later: I enlarged the attributions with "Further attributions" from 2nd page of the 1520 edition)

1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen (question)
If one gets honors (translation of question)
Prophet David (Prophet)
King Franckreich (France) (King)
Animal: Wag - Zodiac: Libra (Animal ... in this case a zodiac sign)
Further attributions: Mercury / North

2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden
If one's ideas reach their goal
Prophet Daniel
King Engelland (England)
Animal: Wider - Zodiac: Aries
Further attributions: Mercury / West

3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen
If it is good to fight against an enemy
Prophet Zacharias
King Schottenland (Scotland)
Animal: Ochs - Zodiac: Taurus
Further attributions: Jupiter / East

4. Von frawen haymlichkeit
About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman
Prophet Isaias
King Ungern (Hungary)
Animal: Krebs - Zodiac: Cancer
Further attributions: Jupiter / North

5. Von gottes huld und gnaden
About god's grace
Prophet Abacuck
King Marroch (Marocco)
Animal: Leb - Zodiac: Leo
Further attributions: Mercury / East

6. Von manne haymlickeit
About "Haymlichkeit" of the man
Prophet Jonas
King Cecilien (Sicilia ?)
Animal: Rab - Crow
Further attributions: Mercury / South

7. Von gtrewn Lewten
About loyal persons
Prophet Malachias
King Römischer König (Rome)
Animal Jungfraw - Zodiac: Virgo
Further attributions: Jupiter / South

8. Von vil frawen
About many women
Prophet Jeremias
King Morenland (land of the Moors)
Animal Fisch - Zodiac: Pisces
Further attributions: Venus / East

9. Von reichtum
about richness
Prophet Gedeon
King Armenien (Armenia)
Animal Wassertrager - Zodiac: Aquarius
Further attributions: Mars / North

10. Von langem leben
About long life
Prophet Nabuchodonnsor
King Schweden (Sweden)
Animal Zwyling - Zodiac: Gemini
Further attributions: Jupiter / West

11. Von deinem frewnde
About a male friend
Prophet Ismahelite
King Turcken (Turkey)
Animal Schutz - Zodiac: Sagitarius
Further attributions: Mars / South

12. Von deiner Frewndin
About a female friend
Prophet Theodosius
King Spangen (Spain)
Animal: Scorpion Zodiac: Scorpio
Further attributions: Mars / West

13. Ob es gut sej wallen
If it good to "wallen" (? to wander or to make a pilgrim's journey ?)
Prophet Putifar
King Indian (India)
Animal Einhorn - Zodiac: unicorn/capricorn
Further attributions: Mars / East

14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)
Further attributions: Venus / North

15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag
If something is paid back
Prophet Moyses
King Tartern (land of the Tartars ? Mongolia ?)
Animal: Arr (eagle)
Further attributions: Sun /NorthEast

16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)
Further attributions: Venus / South

17. Von herren lone
About salary of a master
Prophet Abraham
King Nobie (Nubia)
Animal: Kamelthyer (camel)
Further attributions: Venus / West

18. Von sorgen
About sorrows
Prophet Joseph
King Cypern (Cyprus)
Animal Syttich (parrot)
Further attributions: Moon / SouthEast

19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde
If a lost object is found again
Prophet Samuel
King Arragon (Aragon)
Animal: Hyrs (stag)
Further attributions: Saturn / West

20. Von hoffnung
About hope
Prophet Israhel
King Babylonien (Babylon)
Animal: Hundt (dog)
Further attributions: Saturn / East

21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden
If a prisoner will be released
Prophet Nathan
King - Emperor
Animal: Has (Hare)
Further attributions: Saturn / North

22. Von der libe
About love
Prophet Jacob
King - Pope
Animal: Esel (donkey)
Further attributions: Saturn / South

****************************

Well it's a little bit crazy, but not totally obscure.

There's a "somehow disturbed" system of the zodiac-signs, which starts with Libra (1), then seems to follow for some time the usual row (Aries (2), Taurus (3), ... then a small jump to Cancer (4) and to Leo (5), then a break with the crow (6) and a back to order with Virgo (7), then a big jump (180°) to Pisces (8), running back to Aquarius (9), collecting the forgotten Gemini (10) with a following another (180°) big jump to Sagitarius (11) with a step back to Scorpio and going back and finishing in the unusual unicorn-capricorn. Isn't this a little bit crazy?

Then we have a change in the 22 questions, just with the starting word "'Ob" or "Von" ("if" or "about) ... this seems somehow sorted:

1-3 ob
4-12 von
13-15 ob
16-18 von
19 ob
20 von
21 ob
22 von

In contrast to the zodiac row this looks sorted. It is somehow the system, as we meet it in the Hebrew alphabet in the Sepher Yetzirah

1. 12 simple letters (in the Sepher Yetzirah - as "nearly" here - ALSO given to the zodiac)
2. 6(7) double letters, but one is special
3. 3(4) mothers

Each of the single groups parted in "ob" and "von" elements

I get from this "second order" the inspiration to attempt to understand the zodiac confusion, by getting it in groups of 3:

1st group: Libra - Aries - Taurus ... a somehow "logical triad"

Why? It starts with Aries (the "me" and Mars in astrology) between two women ...
(Libra=Venus - Aries=Mars - Taurus=Venus)
... as this is a divination book and divination books had as major topic occurrences in love life, one shouldn't overlook this dimension The "me-Aries" in encircled by the "you-libra" (180° opposition) and the natural follower in the zodiacal row "Taurus=possession".
Alright, this looks sorted.

2nd group: Cancer-Leo-(crow interference)-Virgo

Well, this is also a group: this are just the months of summer - though with a "crow-interference" somehow at the right place. Cancer is reigned by the moon and Leo is reigned by the sun, and so they are in the astrological system a logical pair. So ... which 3rd sign should be taken? As the first triade focused the male principle - the MAN between two attractive women, now here a female should be focussed, and for matters of love and cause this is a divination book for love affair, that the virgin Virgo ... perhaps intended to signify the daughter of Sun (father-in-law from the perspective of the male principle) and the daughter of Moon (mother-in-law from the male perspective)

I jump to the 4th group (for easier understanding):
4th group: Sagitarius encircled by Scorpio and unicorn-Capricorn ... well, this 3 are the 3 dark months, and it is arranged in the manner, that it finishes with unicorn-Capricorn, which - thanks to the interference of the crow - now is outside of the first 12 signs. Capricorn stands for "motherhood", and, well, that's the aim of the operation "man meets virgin". With the birth a new systems opens, and so unicorn/Capricorn stands outside of the 12 - thanks to the crow.

Back to the 3rd group: Pisces-Aquarius are naturally both connected to water and associative they are a pair and whatever in this water period happens to the two lovers (man in 1-3 and virgin in 4-7) , we finally find them as Adam and Eve in Gemini:
... so have at the peak of the 3rd group the fall into sexual activities with following 3 "dark monthes" (pregnancy) in the 4th group with the final birth, when the Unicorn comes ...
... well, this is from the Lorenzo Spirito text, who also had its very big special observations about the unicorn.

We're in the dimension of the Hymeneus activities with lot books.
Well, this is from the marriage Costanzo Sforza and Camilla Aragon 1475, and this is just that, what has to found out, that noble playing cards aka Trionfi cards aka Tarot cards in their origin as luxury objects were made for the high moments in life, when two people married.

**********************

Well, there is a new theme ... possibly it starts best with the "pope and the donkey", which has to be explored. What does this mean? .... ...

Christ on donkey, Pope on horse ... seems to protest against the luxury of the papal life
http://www.art-wallpaper.com/12501/Jobi ... -12501.jpg


Sex-donkey with the year 1496 and with papal castle (keys at the flag) in the background, likely reactions on the scandal-affairs of Alexander VI, possibly used in 1546, when the Farnese pope (1534 - 1448), who had profited from the earlier sex-affair, was mighty.
better picture:



http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1443-1134

Anti-Catholic Satire: The Pope as an Ass with Bagpipes
1545
Lucas Cranach the Younger (1515-1586 German)
Woodcut print

better picture:



A pope is hunted from Rome, escaping on an ass

http://www.mybude.com/deutsche-geschich ... eil-2.html

4 monks and 3 donkeys ... meaning not known


Monk and Ass, meaning not clear


This, without donkey, had been an attack against Johannes XXII (reigned first half of 14th century, though I didn't found a date to this production)

I wondered about Der Babelt? written on the drawing with the pope and donkey: nothing in the German Dictionary, only a reference on google to Babel in relation to a building project where different languages would be spoken in the finished structure - Novartis Babelt.

So I did a search for 'pope/donkey/talk', but all I found was a reference in a novel to a story from the Middle Ages, which is probably entirely fictious also, since I couldn't find it anywhere else.

'twould be good if someone better at research than I am could find a source - if one exists.

Pen

PS. Cross-posted with Huck, who of course would know the German...

Huck wrote:

Sex-donkey with the year 1496 and with papal castle (keys at the flag) in the background, likely reactions on the scandal-affairs of Alexander VI, possibly used in 1546, when the Farnese pope (1534 - 1448), who had profited from the earlier sex-affair, was mighty.

More interesting info here:The Papal Donkey, from The Temptation of Paul Hindemith: Mathis der Maler as a spiritual testimony, by Siglind Bruhn

Pen

Pen wrote:I wondered about Der Babelt? written on the drawing with the pope and donkey: nothing in the German Dictionary, only a reference on google to Babel in relation to a building project where different languages would be spoken in the finished structure.

So I did a search for 'pope/donkey/talk', but all I found was a reference in a novel to a story from the Middle Ages, which is probably entirely fictious also, since I couldn't find it anywhere else.

Pen

PS. Cross-posted with Huck, who of course would know the German...

Babest (not Babelt) sounds like Papst and this means pope. German writing in this time could be rather different, mostly according to the dialect the people were talking with. In Swabia "P" is often near to "b" and for "talking" they use the word "babbele" or "babble" ... ... which they understand as an equivalent for "plappern", which is a general low word for "much talking". So naturally a babest just means pope, nothing to worry about.

Much more difficulties are caused, if you meet a Swabian and he uses the common German verb "heben" ... even Germans are then near to the believe, that they never learned their own language ... ... "heben" (to "lift something" usually) can replace possibly 100 other words - only in Swabia, so that's very economic during talking in the way that you can babbele ca. 20% more than usually in the same time ... ... so the advantage of English (10-15% quicker than German) is reduced to minus 5-10% against Schwäbisch.

Ah, that's a pity, and just goes to show how easy it is be led astray - I did wonder why you hadn't mentioned it...

Thanks for putting me straight.

Pen

Pen wrote: More interesting info here:The Papal Donkey, from The Temptation of Paul Hindemith: Mathis der Maler as a spiritual testimony, by Siglind Bruhn

Pen

I would bet, that this dramatic Tiber story didn't really happen, but what really happened, was, that in 1494 the "Ship of Fools" was published and very short time after it was translated to Latin .. published at 1. Juni 1497, as I see here, so a little bit after 1496. This was full of fools and of donkeys, and in short time it caused other satirical writing and an avalanche of Fool's literature.
The "Ship of Fools" became the one big German bestseller till Goethe's Werther in 1775, in other words "the ship of Fools" and the connected satirical spirit caused the reformation and changed history in the manner, that the pope and the ass picture somehow united.

I've read the Pope + Donkey description in the lot book ... I cannot call this connection satirical, somehow it refers to Jesus entering Jerusalem.



But the ship of Fools showed this picture and others with a donkey:



One has to reflect, that there still weren't too much many-pictures-editions in the 1490s, those, who produced books with extensive use of woodcuts had good chances to become famous for that like Schedel'sche Weltchronik 1493 or Ship of Fools 1494 or even the later Hypnerotomachia Poliphili 1499 in Italy.
This evolution developed to New Media Power, and humble woodcutters became famous and desired artists.

So it might be, that 1492 Pope + Donkey was a natural Christian symbol, but in 1496 a blasphemy.

Pen wrote:Ah, that's a pity, and just goes to show how easy it is be led astray - I did wonder why you hadn't mentioned it...
Thanks for putting me straight.
Pen

Well, that's difficult with German language for foreigners, especially old texts, before 1530 ... with c. 1530 the Luther German stood to some part, and then one has often nearer contact to modern German. Generally most older German texts read like "trivial literature" (just my private and personal impression), mostly "not mysterious". They often turn "mysterious", if foreigners start to interpret them. Germany hadn't big cities and many languages (dialects), such communities don't have too much mysteries from their culture. And more intellectual people spoke Latin. So "simple meanings" are dominating, when you read "old German". You've to assume the "trivial". German became much more complex in 18th century. ... ... It's very difficult to understands Kant. You've to learn Kant-German - that's extreme.

In matters of Tarot one has to see, that Boiardo - likely in 1487 (so before the ship of Fools) - created with his Tarocchi poem and his 3 verses for the Fool ...

Mondo, da pazzi vanamente amato,
Portarti un fol su l'asino presume,
Ché i stolti sol confidano in tuo stato.

which, translated with Marco, leads to

World, you are vainly loved by the mad,
And a fool thinks he can bring you on his donkey,
Because the stupid only trust your state.

.. the picture of the Fool riding at the donkey. But Boiardo's deck likely wasn't published in his lifetime, it seems, that Pier Antonio Viti ...
http://trionfi.com/0/h/03/
... realized the production (he had an artist brother, who could also engrave ... perhaps by this way).

So it's clear, that the Fool-Donkey connection was already on its way in 1487. But Boiardo "wrote an abbreviation of the Golden Ass of Apuleius" in 1475. From this one has to assume that Boiardo was a "donkey-specialist" ... and Apuleius also wrote a work "De mundo", and Boiardo connects in his 3 lines the 3 words Mondo, fol and asino ... ... a "nice game" with a lot of possible background meaning.

Could that Pope in your first version be talking to Balaam's ass, a proverbial source of wisdom to people who don't obey God's commands, with Balaam in the background? (http://www.fisheaters.com/animalsbalaam.html). The ass doesn't look too pleased with what it hears.

Huck wrote:There are two lot book appearances of the motif "pope with donkey".

1. Fränkisches Losbuch (c. 1426-1450)

2. Lot book version of c. 1520, in Landshut printed by Johann Weißenburger

Well, there a new theme ... possibly it starts best with the "pope and the donkey", which has to be explored. What does this mean? .... ...

It's very tempting to make connections. The story of Baalam's ass mentions Jacob, who is featured in the second picture; this seems to be the prophet Jacob. The pope in the first image seems to be admonishing the donkey. In the second he's conferring a blessing (on both man and ass?).

The contents are so similar though (pope, man with scroll, donkey), that there must surely be a connection. A 'eureka!' moment is a possibility with the right key.

OnePotato, where are you?

Pen