Tarot History Forum

Since I last wrote on this subject, a paper from 2008 has been indexed on Google - Maria Mercè López Casas, Antonia Viñez Sánchez, "Un arcano del Tarot en el Juego de naipes de Fernando de la Torre", in A mi dizen quantos amigos ey: Homenaxe ao profesor Xosé Luis Couceiro (Universidade de Santiago de Compostela, 2008), pp. 241-253.

Fortunately, all but 2 pages of this paper (245 and 246) are available on Google Books -
http://books.google.com/books?id=1x5FCr ... &q&f=false

I blogged about the "Juego de naypes" here -
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/20 ... -game.html
and here -
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/20 ... pdate.html
(please see the comments also, where Nancy Marino responded)

We discussed it, in the context of the apparent divinatory aspect, on THF in this thread -
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210

Enrique also translated it in July of last year (thank you very much again, Enrique!).

This new paper brings up the possibility of a connection between Tarot and Fernando de la Torre's game, since his game contains an Emperor card, and he was in Florence in his youth (pp. 243, 250 note 35). However, Casas and Sánchez do not say when that was. Fernando was born in Burgos, in Spain, probably in 1416. I estimated that "in his youth" should mean before the age of 20, so before 1436.

Fortunately another paper, by a scholar specializing in Fernando de la Torre, is available on the web (well, it was yesterday) - Maria Jesús Díez Garretas, "Fernando de la Torre y su Obra Literaria. Contribución a la Literatura Castellana cuatrocentista", Castilla. Estudios de literatura no. 5 (1983) pp. 23-40.

On pp. 26-27 of this paper, Garretas gives the known details of this part of Fernando's life. Apparently his family were of means, since he finished his education in Italy, particularly in "una escuela de Florencia". Most importantly, Garretas gives some dates - when he was 18, he went to Basel for the Council and stayed there until 1439. Thus, we can place him in Florence roughly between 1432 and 1434.

If Fernando de la Torre really encountered Tarot in Florence or somewhere or other in Italy, as Casas and Sánchez suggest, before 1434, this raises interesting questions.

Did he choose the Emperor out the complete set for a reason, or did the complete set not exist yet?
Is it connected to the game "Imperatori", which we know already existed in Florence since the 1420s?
Can we take this as indirect evidence of a proto-Tarot, where at least one Emperor was present?
If the Emperor were present, what about the Pope - his natural companion in a rank above Kings?

Of course, Fernando may have invented it independently, but this seems unlikely a priori, and given his stay in Italy, the coincidence is just too striking. Therefore we have to seriously consider that some kind of trumping game existed in Florence before 1434, which contained an Emperor.

Therefore we have to seriously consider that some kind of trumping game existed in Florence before 1434, which contained an Emperor.

There is note of VIII Imperatori cards produced in Florence 1423.

Huck wrote:

Therefore we have to seriously consider that some kind of trumping game existed in Florence before 1434, which contained an Emperor.

There is note of VIII Imperatori cards produced in Florence 1423.

Yes, I noted that.

But I took it that VIII Imperatori or just Imperatori was a kind of Karnöffel - i.e. there were no extra cards, permanent trumps, just normal cards with colourful names that acted as trumps.

I think Fernando de la Torre's game, taking into account his education in Florence in the 1430s, might give more weight to the interpretation of Imperatori as a permanent trump game.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: But I took it that VIII Imperatori or just Imperatori was a kind of Karnöffel - i.e. there were no extra cards, permanent trumps, just normal cards with colourful names that acted as trumps.

I think Fernando de la Torre's game, taking into account his education in Florence in the 1430s, might give more weight to the interpretation of Imperatori as a permanent trump game.

In Karnöffels later version it clearly didn't need external trumps, but the version, that was seen and described by Mysner around 1450, might well have had special cards.

And the note of 1423 only makes sense, if the mentioned cards were external trumps.

And somehow trumps are always - per definition of games which use trumps - different from suit cards, even if the used trump cards belong to suits. If other games without trumps are played, they could serve as suits. Generally playing card decks were used for more than one game - usually.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: This new paper brings up the possibility of a connection between Tarot and Fernando de la Torre's game, since his game contains an Emperor card, and he was in Florence in his youth (pp. 243, 250 note 35). However, Casas and Sánchez do not say when that was. Fernando was born in Burgos, in Spain, probably in 1416. I estimated that "in his youth" should mean before the age of 20, so before 1436.

Fortunately another paper, by a scholar specializing in Fernando de la Torre, is available on the web (well, it was yesterday) - Maria Jesús Díez Garretas, "Fernando de la Torre y su Obra Literaria. Contribución a la Literatura Castellana cuatrocentista", Castilla. Estudios de literatura no. 5 (1983) pp. 23-40.

On pp. 26-27 of this paper, Garretas gives the known details of this part of Fernando's life. Apparently his family were of means, since he finished his education in Italy, particularly in "una escuela de Florencia". Most importantly, Garretas gives some dates - when he was 18, he went to Basel for the Council and stayed there until 1439. Thus, we can place him in Florence roughly between 1432 and 1434.

There is a brief note of his studies at Florence in a poem of his I quoted from which suggest he studied history and philosophy here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=245&p=2955&hilit=F ... rrara#p295

Fernando de la Torre who studied in Florence "...Y que es del saber de Salamon, que de Aristotiles, que de Platon, que de Terencio, que de Socratres, que de Boecio, que de Lucan, que de Titus Libio, e que de Valerio e otros singulars filosofos e ystoriadores."

Such lists belong to a literary tradition into which a poet of the period liked to place themselves, and cannot be taken too seriously as a true indication of what a poet's real studies, in Torre's case he does for example seem to know something of Plato's Republic either directly or second hand as he makes quotes from it.

Hi friends!

Ross, sorry, are you sure whit this date?

In the article, said its writen Fernando, maybe, write the poem in 1450
http://books.google.com/books?id=1x5FCr ... &q&f=false

The argumets for this date its
If you need, i can try sumaryze this arguments in my prehistoric English

mmfilesi wrote: Ross, sorry, are you sure whit this date?

In the article, said its writen Fernando, maybe, write the poem in 1450

Yes, 1450 is about the earliest possible date, and 1455 about the latest, as I understand it. In my second blog post above I gave Nancy Marino's suggestion that a notorious event of 1448 is referred to in the poem -
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/20 ... pdate.html

My concern was with the date of his travels in Italy. It is not known that he ever returned to Italy after 1434. After 1439 he left Basel and returned to Spain, where he quickly went into the service of Juan II. He was active on diplomatic missions to France in the 1440s - no mention of Italy.

So - if the hypothesis is that he was inspired by a game he saw in Italy, that game had to have been there before 1434. We know there was an Emperor's game in Florence, since at least 1423, but we don't know what it looked like.

I don't understand Casas and Sánchez's argument in detail, but they seem to believe there is a relationship with the Visconti-Sforza Tarot, which I find wildly implausible, and unnecessary.

De la Torre added an Emperor to a standard Spanish pack - I think if he had known a game with an Empress and Queens - Tarot - his Spanish invention would have looked different. Therefore the game he knew in Italy - probably - was a game with an Emperor (one at least), added to a standard pack. This could be what the game of Imperatori looked like.

Please do try, if you like, to summarize the arguments.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:

mmfilesi wrote: Ross, sorry, are you sure whit this date?

In the article, said its writen Fernando, maybe, write the poem in 1450

Yes, 1450 is about the earliest possible date, and 1455 about the latest, as I understand it. In my second blog post above I gave Nancy Marino's suggestion that a notorious event of 1448 is referred to in the poem -
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/20 ... pdate.html

My concern was with the date of his travels in Italy. It is not known that he ever returned to Italy after 1434. After 1439 he left Basel and returned to Spain, where he quickly went into the service of Juan II. He was active on diplomatic missions to France in the 1440s - no mention of Italy.

So - if the hypothesis is that he was inspired by a game he saw in Italy, that game had to have been there before 1434. We know there was an Emperor's game in Florence, since at least 1423, but we don't know what it looked like.

I don't understand Casas and Sánchez's argument in detail, but they seem to believe there is a relationship with the Visconti-Sforza Tarot, which I find wildly implausible, and unnecessary.

De la Torre added an Emperor to a standard Spanish pack - I think if he had known a game with an Empress and Queens - Tarot - his Spanish invention would have looked different. Therefore the game he knew in Italy - probably - was a game with an Emperor (one at least), added to a standard pack. This could be what the game of Imperatori looked like.

Please do try, if you like, to summarize the arguments.

De la Torre was not only in Florence, he was also in Basel. If he was interested in playing cards in Florence, he surely was it in Basel, too.
If the game was made between 1450 - 1455, then it seems plausible to see the Emperor card poem in context of the real Emperor Fredrick III, who in this time successfully arranged, that he could marry a Portuguese princess in spring 1452. Active in the marriage matter had been especially Enea Piccolomini, who had the most intimate relations to probably everyone, who had a longer stay at the council of Basel. Enea made his arrangement via Alfonso of Aragon in Naples, but surely he attempted more than one way to reach his goal ... somebody in Spain, whom he know from Basel, had good chances to become involved in the matter. The journey of the princess finally was made via ship, but it endured long time and was dangerous cause of pirates. It's plausible, that also a way with horses and chariots through Spain was discussed, possibly the Compostela route.

SteveM wrote: Such lists belong to a literary tradition into which a poet of the period liked to place themselves, and cannot be taken too seriously as a true indication of what a poet's real studies, in Torre's case he does for example seem to know something of Plato's Republic either directly or second hand as he makes quotes from it.

Yes. What kind of exposure to the Republic might he have had in Florence, before 1434?

Asking you to refresh me on Hankins...

a) It is not necessarytravel to learn some thing of one country. We don't know the letters of Fernando. Maybe, Has learned the game by a letter written by a friend. I don't see the Ingold wine's deck, and I didn't read The Guldin Spil original, but I know because Huck told me.

b) Yes, the relationship with the Visconti-Sforza deck, in general, is not well founded. His bibliography of the tarot is a bit outdated, but the idea is correct. Try to explain what he says:

1. In the card of the emperor, Fernando explains (in the introduction) to be included Enriquez's coat of arms, the heraldic. Same thing happens with CY and PMB, which includes the heraldic Visconti-Sforza.

I dont find this description in your version. Must see Vega, (2007: 121).

2. In that card (emperor) are the countess and a doncella (girl virgin). The heraldic shields of the two girls are the Enriquez family.

The emblem of the doncella is smaller and has a bar across.This is a sign of bastardy.

Well, the countess Mencia Enríquez its was sterile, shee can't have son.Therefore, her husband, count Juan made love to his wife's maid, doña Catalina Enríquez de Ribera (the doncella). In 1453, King Juan II legitimized the children of count Juan and Catalina Enríquez.