Hi Huck
I ve taken in account your answer.
I have revised my last post deleting reference to your post.
This way, no confusion is possible.
Synthese actuelle de l'hypothèse avignonnaise :
Accepting that, in Avignon, Julien de la Rovere is the key person for a datation of the Goldschmidt luxury hand painted on parchment cards, 2 directions are possible :
- Mikeh : under Charles VIII 1494 :
Delle Robere also had close ties to Charles VIII. He was in his company twice, although the first time Louis XI was king.
Of interest also : Charles VIII on his way to Naples and Florence
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1060#p16250
- mine : 1479 ? King René and Avignon
In May June 1476, King René negociates with Louis XI the Cardinal Legacy in Avignon for Julien de la Rovere who is with him
Le 15 janvier 1479, le maitre cartier peintre A. Tavernier[fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=70#p17974
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
82Huck : Who is responsible for this wild hypothesis? And who shall accept this?
Alain : I did.
Who shall accept this? We'll see.
Huck : I personally spoke of the Leber Tarocchi and that some people have recognized Rovere-symbol on these cards. So - possibly - this might have been a deck made under influence von the Rovere family. It's a generally used custom in research to conclude from family symbols on the cards on possible owners, commissioners or producers. That's okay, I think.
Goldschmidt cards are NOT identical with Leber Tarocchi.
Alain : Noted. I didn't speak about Liber Tarocchi ...but it's ok for me.
Huck :
I think, that decks on parchment have been not so rare,
Alain
Depaulis doesn't agree with you.
Support =Parchemin
Le support, quant à lui, est clairement un palimpseste, c'est-à-dire que le parchemin a été réutilisé comme on peut le voir sur la bordure gauche de la carte représentant un évêque. Le fond d'or est étampé et les dos sont recouverts d'un rouge carmin sombre.
Les cartes à jouer sur parchemin sont rarissimes; même les plus anciennes — comme le jeu de Stuttgart sont peintes sur du papier.
(T DEPAULIS, Tarot Jeu et Magie BNF 1984)
I personnally believe that insisting on the fact that the cards were luxury hand painted on parchment is relevant!. Who did before?
Huck suite de phrase : that one can conclude from a proven parchment use for the production of cards on a producer Renee d'Anjou, who also used parchment. That's not okay, that's weak, I would say.
Alain : the preference of René d 'Anjou of parchemin over paper is a cultural heritage from Anjou'"s court;
Huck :The most interesting thing about the older Goldschmidt hypothesis was, that a Milanese painter visited the Dauphin Louis XI in early 1461. This made the hypothesis interesting, that at this time possibly the Goldschmidt was produced. The key card was for this speculation was the Dauphin card.
But now we know better, that the Dauphin on the Goldschmidt card is crowned, and the Dauphin coins don't show a crowned dolphin. That creates a problem for this hypothesis. The theory was bound on a specific time, 1461.
Alain : yes, we've discussed this topic before and I still hold Dauphin Louis XI hypothesis as possible...
I also hold the Charles VIII hypothesis (Mikeh's guess) as possible.
And yet have to examine the Louis XII connection - though he never was a Dauphin.
Not talking about the other candidates as Crowned Delphins such as your recent hypothesis...
Huck :But you're speculating wildly about the Goldschmidt cards, suggesting various dates and various persons as commissioners, as if 40 years or so would full of Goldschmidt cards. This likely wasn't the case.
Alain : Irony isn't an argument.
Why am I examinating various dates and various persons as commissioners?
Because the datation is "from mid-century and does not tell us more.
Cartes « Goldschmidt »
Italie? Provence?, milieu du xve s.
9 cartes, enseignes italiennes (?)
peinture avec fond d'or étampé parchemin
140x65 mm dos: carmin foncé
DEPAULIS writes :
"Ces cartes proviennent de la collection de Victor Goldschmidt qui les publia — sans indication sur leur provenance — dans son livre Farben in Kunst (Heidelberg, 1919 - elles sont une épine dans le pied des spécialistes de la carte à jouer. "
"La solution la plus facile consistait à les déclarer fausses. Malheureusement, une expertise de l'Institut Doerner, faite en 1955, compliqua l'affaire." (sic!)
This leads and justifies to examine one after another the different possibilities, no?
What I'm doing. Any problem with this ? Is anyone sure of it's origin? No.
I may well also examin an Anjou origin in a liitle while!Quite probably I think.
I agree with Mikeh' s suggestion : René figures into our research in another way: his wife, in Anjou, was the recipient of the two decks of triumphs, including the Michelino, sent by Marcello from Milan in 1449.
Huck : Hoffmann possibly associated a Provencal production, cause of the 5 of batons ...
... these don't look Italian. But generally we don't know much cards of 15th century. So this attribution likely is insecure, not a dogma.[/quote]
Alain
Depaulis again : Enseignes ? "La localisation des cartes ajoute aux difficultés : Klein (op. cit.) avait suggéré un artiste lombard, bien que la forme des enseignes et le style austère bien caractéristique puissent faire penser plutôt à la Provence.[...]"
Alain : I did.
Who shall accept this? We'll see.
Huck : I personally spoke of the Leber Tarocchi and that some people have recognized Rovere-symbol on these cards. So - possibly - this might have been a deck made under influence von the Rovere family. It's a generally used custom in research to conclude from family symbols on the cards on possible owners, commissioners or producers. That's okay, I think.
Goldschmidt cards are NOT identical with Leber Tarocchi.
Alain : Noted. I didn't speak about Liber Tarocchi ...but it's ok for me.
Huck :
I think, that decks on parchment have been not so rare,
Alain
Depaulis doesn't agree with you.
Support =Parchemin
Le support, quant à lui, est clairement un palimpseste, c'est-à-dire que le parchemin a été réutilisé comme on peut le voir sur la bordure gauche de la carte représentant un évêque. Le fond d'or est étampé et les dos sont recouverts d'un rouge carmin sombre.
Les cartes à jouer sur parchemin sont rarissimes; même les plus anciennes — comme le jeu de Stuttgart sont peintes sur du papier.
(T DEPAULIS, Tarot Jeu et Magie BNF 1984)
I personnally believe that insisting on the fact that the cards were luxury hand painted on parchment is relevant!. Who did before?
Huck suite de phrase : that one can conclude from a proven parchment use for the production of cards on a producer Renee d'Anjou, who also used parchment. That's not okay, that's weak, I would say.
Alain : the preference of René d 'Anjou of parchemin over paper is a cultural heritage from Anjou'"s court;
Huck :The most interesting thing about the older Goldschmidt hypothesis was, that a Milanese painter visited the Dauphin Louis XI in early 1461. This made the hypothesis interesting, that at this time possibly the Goldschmidt was produced. The key card was for this speculation was the Dauphin card.
But now we know better, that the Dauphin on the Goldschmidt card is crowned, and the Dauphin coins don't show a crowned dolphin. That creates a problem for this hypothesis. The theory was bound on a specific time, 1461.
Alain : yes, we've discussed this topic before and I still hold Dauphin Louis XI hypothesis as possible...
I also hold the Charles VIII hypothesis (Mikeh's guess) as possible.
And yet have to examine the Louis XII connection - though he never was a Dauphin.
Not talking about the other candidates as Crowned Delphins such as your recent hypothesis...
Huck :But you're speculating wildly about the Goldschmidt cards, suggesting various dates and various persons as commissioners, as if 40 years or so would full of Goldschmidt cards. This likely wasn't the case.
Alain : Irony isn't an argument.
Why am I examinating various dates and various persons as commissioners?
Because the datation is "from mid-century and does not tell us more.
Cartes « Goldschmidt »
Italie? Provence?, milieu du xve s.
9 cartes, enseignes italiennes (?)
peinture avec fond d'or étampé parchemin
140x65 mm dos: carmin foncé
DEPAULIS writes :
"Ces cartes proviennent de la collection de Victor Goldschmidt qui les publia — sans indication sur leur provenance — dans son livre Farben in Kunst (Heidelberg, 1919 - elles sont une épine dans le pied des spécialistes de la carte à jouer. "
"La solution la plus facile consistait à les déclarer fausses. Malheureusement, une expertise de l'Institut Doerner, faite en 1955, compliqua l'affaire." (sic!)
This leads and justifies to examine one after another the different possibilities, no?
What I'm doing. Any problem with this ? Is anyone sure of it's origin? No.
I may well also examin an Anjou origin in a liitle while!Quite probably I think.
I agree with Mikeh' s suggestion : René figures into our research in another way: his wife, in Anjou, was the recipient of the two decks of triumphs, including the Michelino, sent by Marcello from Milan in 1449.
Huck : Hoffmann possibly associated a Provencal production, cause of the 5 of batons ...
... these don't look Italian. But generally we don't know much cards of 15th century. So this attribution likely is insecure, not a dogma.[/quote]
Alain
Depaulis again : Enseignes ? "La localisation des cartes ajoute aux difficultés : Klein (op. cit.) avait suggéré un artiste lombard, bien que la forme des enseignes et le style austère bien caractéristique puissent faire penser plutôt à la Provence.[...]"
Last edited by BOUGEAREL Alain on 13 Nov 2016, 01:02, edited 1 time in total.
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
83I don't know about it. But Franco wrote rather often about it, likely not without reason ...BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Huck :
I think, that decks on parchment have been not so rare,
Alain
Depaulis doesn't agree with you.
http://site:naibi.net parchment
Sometimes it helps to wake up.Huck :But you're speculating wildly about the Goldschmidt cards, suggesting various dates and various persons as commissioners, as if 40 years or so would full of Goldschmidt cards. This likely wasn't the case.
Alain : Irony isn't an argument.
If you would use a little bit more quote-function I would be possibly able to identify, where you quoted Klein.Huck : Hoffmann possibly associated a Provencal production, cause of the 5 of batons ...
... these don't look Italian. But generally we don't know much cards of 15th century. So this attribution likely is insecure, not a dogma.
Alain
Depaulis again : Enseignes ? "La localisation des cartes ajoute aux difficultés : Klein (op. cit.) avait suggéré un artiste lombard, bien que la forme des enseignes et le style austère bien caractéristique puissent faire penser plutôt à la Provence.[...]"
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
84Huck wrote:I don't know about it. But Franco wrote rather often about it, likely not without reason ...BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Huck :
I think, that decks on parchment have been not so rare,
Alain
Depaulis doesn't agree with you.
http://site:naibi.net parchment
Sometimes it helps to wake up.Huck :But you're speculating wildly about the Goldschmidt cards, suggesting various dates and various persons as commissioners, as if 40 years or so would full of Goldschmidt cards. This likely wasn't the case.
Alain : Irony isn't an argument.
If you would use a little bit more quote-function I would be possibly able to identify, where you quoted Klein.Huck : Hoffmann possibly associated a Provencal production, cause of the 5 of batons ...
... these don't look Italian. But generally we don't know much cards of 15th century. So this attribution likely is insecure, not a dogma.
Alain
Depaulis again : Enseignes ? "La localisation des cartes ajoute aux difficultés : Klein (op. cit.) avait suggéré un artiste lombard, bien que la forme des enseignes et le style austère bien caractéristique puissent faire penser plutôt à la Provence.[...]"
References : DEPAULIS T. 1984 BNF
About the Goldschmidt Cards pp 39 - 40
I've sent you in mp the link to Gallica...
It is DEPAULIS who quotes Klein, 52 in Notes.
Btw your link about Franco's writings on parchment does not work...
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
85Robert Klein: "Les tarots enluminés du xV siecle", dans L'OEil, no 145, January 1967
and Depaulis 1984 is at ...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6 ... r=depaulis
and Depaulis 1984 is at ...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6 ... r=depaulis
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
86Hmm, link doesn't work for me...Huck wrote: I don't know about it. But Franco wrote rather often about it, likely not without reason ...
http://site:naibi.net parchment
Here is another card from 15th century on parchment:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/98-0110 ... A9MXF.html
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
87Yes Steve.
The Navire is one of the "rarissimes" examples ...
http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/collection ... avire.html
Cette carte est un assemblage de deux feuilles de parchemin collées sur une âme de carton. La seule face décorée est enluminée d'un motif de navire, ce qui est assez inhabituel et ne correspond pas à la composition des jeux de tarot, sauf en Toscane. Le vaisseau flotte sur l'eau, les voiles dorées comportant une croix dessinée par des carreaux rouge. L'horizon est recouvert d'un motif doré poinçonné de losanges ornés de quadrilobes. L'ensemble est encadré d'un filet rouge rehaussé de blanc, tandis qu'au bas se lit sur deux lignes une citation du poète latin Horace : "Odi profanum / volgus et arceo", soit en français "Je hais le vulgaire profane et m'en tiens éloigné" (Horace, Odes III, 1, 1).
Cette carte serait un témoin précoce de la vogue des jeux littéraires ou humanistes inventés dans les milieux de cour italiens à la fin du Moyen Âge.
Acquis en 1996
N° Inventaire : Cl.23526
Hauteur : 16,5 cm
Largeur : 8,4 cm
Profondeur : 0,14 cm
Complément d'information sur le lieu : Production : Italie du Nord
Période : 3e quart du XVe siècle
Techniques : Enluminure; Poinçonné
The Navire is one of the "rarissimes" examples ...
http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/collection ... avire.html
Cette carte est un assemblage de deux feuilles de parchemin collées sur une âme de carton. La seule face décorée est enluminée d'un motif de navire, ce qui est assez inhabituel et ne correspond pas à la composition des jeux de tarot, sauf en Toscane. Le vaisseau flotte sur l'eau, les voiles dorées comportant une croix dessinée par des carreaux rouge. L'horizon est recouvert d'un motif doré poinçonné de losanges ornés de quadrilobes. L'ensemble est encadré d'un filet rouge rehaussé de blanc, tandis qu'au bas se lit sur deux lignes une citation du poète latin Horace : "Odi profanum / volgus et arceo", soit en français "Je hais le vulgaire profane et m'en tiens éloigné" (Horace, Odes III, 1, 1).
Cette carte serait un témoin précoce de la vogue des jeux littéraires ou humanistes inventés dans les milieux de cour italiens à la fin du Moyen Âge.
Acquis en 1996
N° Inventaire : Cl.23526
Hauteur : 16,5 cm
Largeur : 8,4 cm
Profondeur : 0,14 cm
Complément d'information sur le lieu : Production : Italie du Nord
Période : 3e quart du XVe siècle
Techniques : Enluminure; Poinçonné
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
88Sorry ... Type "site:naibi.net parchment" in the address-field, then it works
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
89It works :
http://www.naibi.net/
There are many publications of Franco : is there one specific about parchment cards ?
The question is of interest.
Must Depaulis affirmation stand corrected?
Writing about the Goldschmidt Cards , he says :
"Les cartes à jouer sur parchemin sont rarissimes; même les plus anciennes — comme le jeu de Stuttgart sont peintes sur du papier."
(T DEPAULIS, Tarot Jeu et Magie, pp 39-40, BNF 1984)
What did Franco write?
Mikeh?
Anyway, I don't believe that Depaulis can equivicate so much.
At best, If Franco has given data, maybe should his assertion be changed from "rarissimes ' to "rares".
Depaulis is usually very careful in his langage and I need more precisions...
Interesting nevertheless to see what are these parchment cards and from where do they come.
The Navire mentionned by Steve likely comes from North of italia and the motif is probably linked to Florence or more largely Toscane last quarter XVth century.
Knowing where and when there was a creation of a parchment hand painted luxury cards may be of relevance for the Goldschmidt inquiry...
http://www.naibi.net/
There are many publications of Franco : is there one specific about parchment cards ?
The question is of interest.
Must Depaulis affirmation stand corrected?
Writing about the Goldschmidt Cards , he says :
"Les cartes à jouer sur parchemin sont rarissimes; même les plus anciennes — comme le jeu de Stuttgart sont peintes sur du papier."
(T DEPAULIS, Tarot Jeu et Magie, pp 39-40, BNF 1984)
What did Franco write?
Mikeh?
Anyway, I don't believe that Depaulis can equivicate so much.
At best, If Franco has given data, maybe should his assertion be changed from "rarissimes ' to "rares".
Depaulis is usually very careful in his langage and I need more precisions...
Interesting nevertheless to see what are these parchment cards and from where do they come.
The Navire mentionned by Steve likely comes from North of italia and the motif is probably linked to Florence or more largely Toscane last quarter XVth century.
Knowing where and when there was a creation of a parchment hand painted luxury cards may be of relevance for the Goldschmidt inquiry...
Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot
90Again ... Type "site:naibi.net parchment" in the address-field, then it works ...BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:It works :
http://www.naibi.net/
There are many publications of Franco : is there one specific about parchment cards ?
you can see, where Franco typed "parchment" in his articles
It would improve your research qualities, if you learn the method.