Tarot History Forum

My understanding too is that the role of the fool as excuse belonged to the classic game, and that a role as highest trump occurred in later games. It is used as an excuse in the rules of 1634 [sic]isn't it? Unless I am misreading the text, so why only 'after 1634'? (Does he mean 1637, which is the date I have for these rules? Or are there earlier rules from 1634?)

Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.*

...and this excuse is made with the Mat card, which is one of the seven tarot cards, which does not take and cannot be taken...,

(Seven tarot cards = juggler, fool, world and four kings)

So, even though it states at the beginning that there are 22 triumphs, it would be confusing to translate this as 22 trumps, as clearly the Mat, which does not take and cannot be taken, is not a trump; so the 22 triumphs are composed of 21 trumps plus the excuse.

The earliest listings too indicate a special role for the fool, both in Boiardo and in the Steele Sermon, they are referred to as 21 trumps plus the fool.

So I think Alain is mistaken or confused about both the fool as excuse being post 1634/7, and also with his earlier statment that Trumps are not listed as 21+1=22 before some time...., or I have misunderstood him.

SteveM

* Modern French version by Jean-Claude Flornoy:

Celui qui ne s’est point excusé en jouant en paye deux à chacun et cette excuse se fait avec la carte du Mat, qui est un des sept tarots, qui ne prend pas et ne peut être pris, mais se présente sur la main des autres joueurs, et se remet dans les cartes qui sont levées.

http://letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages/reg ... -1637.html

Huck wrote:As I understand it, you cannot play the fool as the first card in a trick.

But if a player got all tricks till the last trick (so nearly a grand slam) and has as his last card still the Fool on hand and then plays the Fool as the first card of the last trick (he can't play anything else, there's no choice), it works as a trump (and the grand slam is then fulfilled).
Cause of the rule, that you cannot play the Fool as the first card of the trick, there was no opportunity to play it earlier (cause the winner of the last trick leads to the next trick). It is a necessary exception of the rule, otherwise the rules wouldn't work.

I am not sure as to how old the rule is, but you can certainly play the Fool as first card in modern games I have seen, at which one either declares what suit it is, or such is decided by the card next played.

mikeh wrote:...And Garzoni (http://www.tarock.info/garzoni.htm).

OT:

I see in another of his works (The hospital of the incurably crazy), Garzoni describes 'tarocco' as something like 'malignant madness' or 'Crazy with Spight' (Pazzo Dísspettoso - presuming Disspettoso = dispettoso (despiteful, malicious, malignant, catty, bitchy?), or Spiteful Madness (or Madman)





For the rest see here:
https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=Fr ... &q&f=false

Vitali wrote an essay on it and there is a translation of it here:
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=109

Hi Steve

About my Aparte in form of a personnal note ..

1.I stand corrected as for the Math used as Excuse in the Rules of 1637.

It is part of the Seven Tarots and will be one of the 3 ENDS.
Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.*

...and this excuse is made with the Mat card, which is one of the seven tarot cards, which does not take and cannot be taken...,

(Seven tarot cards = juggler, fool, world and four kings)


Thanks for the rectification.

2. Nevertheless, one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

3. The paradox is that on one part, it is said to be a Triomphe and on the other part, it isn't a Trump stricto sensu because it cannot take a trick.

4. That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

5. It can be played at any moment of the game to excuse oneself but must be played on the last trick un case of Sclem : it is tje only way to win AALL the tricks.

L'excuse dans les regles modernes

L'excuse n'est pas considérée comme un atout mais comme un honneur. C'est aussi un des trois bouts. Elle sert d'appoint ( en s'excusant ) pour le joueur qui la possède.

Elle peut venir compléter une poignée que dans le cas où il manquerait un atout.

Dans le cours du jeu, l'excuse ( ou fou ) n'a aucune valeur de coupe ( comme un atout ), et peut être jouée en remplacement de n'importe quelle carte, à n'importe quel moment du jeu ( le possesseur de l'excuse peut en faire usage quand bon lui semble ).

Elle reste la propriété du joueur qui la détient. Si l'adversaire gagne le pli dans lequel se trouve l'excuse, celle-ci est immédiatement remplacée ( à la fin du pli, lorsque tout le monde a joué ) par n'importe quelle carte basse, prise dans les levées précédemment acquises par le camp du détenteur de l'excuse. Cette carte basse ne doit surtout pas être prélevée dans l'écart fait par le preneur. Si l'on ne peut pas donner de carte basse, le joueur propriétaire de l'excuse conserve cette dernière près de lui, face visible ; il ne la retournera et la mêlera à ses plis que lors qu'il pourra donner une carte basse à l'adversaire.

Si l'excuse est jouée par celui qui commence le tour de jeu, ce sera la carte fournie par le joueur suivant qui déterminera la couleur demandée.

Si elle est jouée à la dernière levée, elle devient propriété du joueur qui remporte cette levée, il ne faut donc pas la jouer au dernier pli. Sauf en cas de grand ou petit chelem, si le preneur la détient, il remporte le pli ( c'est d'ailleurs le seul moyen de réussir un grand chelem en ayant l'excuse dans son jeu ). En cas de grand chelem, et si l'excuse est mise en dernier pli, le petit sera considéré comme mené au bout s'il est mis à l'avant-dernier pli.

Discussion ; Old French Tarot Rules 1637


1 Le Math est nécessairement (au sens qu'il ne peut en être autrement = nécessaire) inclus dans la liste des 22 triomphes
2. Il est systématiquement associé aux 2 autres "BOUTS" (cf. Nota): entre MONDE et BAGAT
3. Il fait partie des TAROTS PAR EXCELLLENCE

1 Le Math est nécessairement inclus dans la liste des 22 triomphes
Ce jeu qui est composé de soixante & dix-huict Cartes, se peut distribuer en cinq bandes, la première & la plus noble de toutes appellée triomphes qui sont au nombre de vingt-deux

This pack, which consists of seventy-eight cards, can be divided into five sets. The first and noblest of them all is called Trumps, of which there are twenty-two. The other four plain suits (1) are known as swords, batons, cups and coins: each of them consists of fourteen cards : namely the King, Queen, Cavalier and Jack (2), which are also called the four honours, and the remaining cards from the Ten to the Ace '
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)

2. Il est systématiquement associé aux 2 autres BOUTS (cf nota) : entre MONDE et BAGAT
La beauté de ce jeu est d'auoir force triomphes & principallement les hautes auec le Monde, le Math, & le Bagat, & quelques Roys : par ce qu'auec les triomphes on surmonte tous les efforts des quatres [sic] peintures, quand on y fait des renonces.

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings: because with trumps one overcomes all the efforts of the four suits(4), when one makes voids in them .
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)


3. Il fait partie des TAROTS PAR EXCELLENCE
Et par le moyen du Monde, Math, & Bagat, & les Roys, on se fait payer autant de marques de chacun que lon en peut leuer en joüant, à cause de quoy on les nomme Tarots par excellence

And by means of the World, Math, Bagat and the Kings, one is paid as many tokens [6] as one can win by playing them, so they are called "Tarots par excellence"
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)

REFERENCE / http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

Nota
Les 3 Bouts ou ENDS
"Les 3 cartes les plus importantes sont les Oudlers (ou Bouts): le 21, le Petit et l’Excuse. Le 21 est bien sûr imprenable; le Petit est par contre vulnérable.""
.http://www.letarot.net/fr/rules.html

Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.

The fool as excuse does not take and cannot be taken - ergo, it is not a trump in the English sense of the word. The role of the Mat clearly differs from that of the 21 other 'triumphs' in the 1637 rules. 21 triumphs that can take or be taken, and 1 that acts as an 'excuse'.

Same reference:

http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

SteveM wrote:My understanding too is that the role of the fool as excuse belonged to the classic game, and that a role as highest trump occurred in later games. It is used as an excuse in the rules of 1634 [sic]isn't it? Unless I am misreading the text, so why only 'after 1634'? (Does he mean 1637, which is the date I have for these rules? Or are there earlier rules from 1634?)

Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.*

...and this excuse is made with the Mat card, which is one of the seven tarot cards, which does not take and cannot be taken...,

(Seven tarot cards = juggler, fool, world and four kings)

So, even though it states at the beginning that there are 22 triumphs, it would be confusing to translate this as 22 trumps, as clearly the Mat, which does not take and cannot be taken, is not a trump; so the 22 triumphs are composed of 21 trumps plus the excuse.

The earliest listings too indicate a special role for the fool, both in Boiardo and in the Steele Sermon, they are referred to as 21 trumps plus the fool.

So I think Alain is mistaken or confused about both the fool as excuse being post 1634/7, and also with his earlier statment that Trumps are not listed as 21+1=22 before some time...., or I have misunderstood him.

SteveM

* Modern French version by Jean-Claude Flornoy:

Celui qui ne s’est point excusé en jouant en paye deux à chacun et cette excuse se fait avec la carte du Mat, qui est un des sept tarots, qui ne prend pas et ne peut être pris, mais se présente sur la main des autres joueurs, et se remet dans les cartes qui sont levées.

http://letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages/reg ... -1637.html

Comment

The difficulty is the specific function of the Math.

Earlier listings give : 21 +1

The Rules of 1637 give : 22

PS . Some Modern uses tend to duscredit it's belonging tu Trumps and sometimes call's l'Excuse an Honneur - alike the 4 Kings...

Personnaly, and when I say personally, it mean that I am speculating, I believe that the Trumps are 22 with a special function given to the Math.

SteveM wrote:Celuy qui ne s'est point excusé en joüant en paye deux à chacun & cette excuse se faict auec la carte du Math, qui est vn des sept Tarots, qui ne prent point & ne peut estre pris, mais se presente sur la main des autres ioüeurs, & se remet dans les cartes qui sont leuées.

The fool as excuse does not take and cannot be taken - ergo, it is not a trump in the English sense of the word. The role of the Mat clearly differs from that of the 21 other 'triumphs' in the 1637 rules. 21 triumphs that can take or be taken, and 1 that acts as an 'excuse'.

Same reference:

http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

Nevertheless, one cannot discregard the evidence that the Math is necessaraly included in the 22 Triomphes.

The paradox is that on one part, it is said to be a Triomphe and on the other part, it isn't a Trump stricto sensu because it cannot take a trick.

That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: 4. That's why I focused on it's special function in case of Sclem : played at the last trick.

5. It can be played at any moment of the game to excuse oneself but must be played on the last trick un case of Sclem : it is tje only way to win AALL the tricks.

Not sure about that, a player with a lot of trumps in their hands and few colours could theoretically win all the tricks without the Mat in their hand. Probably about as rare as by playing Mat last, but nonetheless possible.

Proposition

i do not believe it is a problem of translation as "Trumps" or "Atouts" have the same signification in whatever language.

Maybe could be made a linguistic distingo between :

"Triomphes" as "Trionfi"

"Atouts" as "Trumps"

So we would have 22 "Triomphes" but 21 Atouts or Trumps + L'Excuse


NB One cannot dusregard the evidence of the 22 Triomphes clearly stated as so in the 1637 French Rules : that's why Mc Leod honestly could not translate the Old French phrase otherwise!
This pack, which consists of seventy-eight cards, can be divided into five sets. The first and noblest of them all is called Trumps, of which there are twenty-two. The other four plain suits (1) are known as swords, batons, cups and coins: each of them consists of fourteen cards : namely the King, Queen, Cavalier and Jack (2), which are also called the four honours, and the remaining cards from the Ten to the Ace '
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)