Tarot History Forum

Hi Eugim,

Thanks for your paint. I will reworks it on Photoshop for a A4 printing. And stick it on wall aside my computer like a World map with Time differential, Tarot cards A4 on wall, Tarot List ect....
Imagine that my Library/Computer Room is a 8 M2 specific place in my house dedicated to Tarot, Astrology, Numerology, Archeology, History and so on..

For wines, I know that many anglo saxons do like Sauvignon Blanc and my White wines are close to Sauvignon no problems.

About Vieiville directions:
JC Flornoy has an hypothesis: Vieiville deck was made from a reverse copy of moulds. He explains his curious non conventionnal direction by this manipulation. It is a possibility.

About connection between Mat and Death:
Only by looking card general shape a connection is made.
of course if death/XIII is on Left direction, it disturb us. But anyway in this case, it is like a carbon copy of his opposite...
I will later build up posters of 50 Historical Decks with XIII cards aside:
One poster with Death Left directed
One poseter with Death Right oriented
Just to shows historical FACTS.

About XIII "victims":
Interresting remark...
Some explains black ground and "vistims" and bones by an allegory of transformation operation/
As a gardener, I thinks of course to my bio COMPOST who start with big pieces (bodys, bones, pieces of vegetables ect...) of original normal colour and end up with soil aspect: very little pieces and BLACK coloured.

About Thread Mat/XIII:
It will happens in due time.
Because my colleague who is building up a new Tarot of Marseille "Made in marseille" has original ideas/theorys about this specific point.

SEQUENCE CONVEYS MEANING:
Yes of course. But witch sequence ? witch direction ? By witch point starting ?
From left to right or right to left
Be patient again.

Or weren t you the Frenchmen who literally reworked barely entirely all the deck ? / Thus what about the angel of TEMPERANCE ?:
I am not this frenchman but I met him weekly and he shows me his ongoing work.
About Temperance, he finished it and I guarantie you that final card will surprises you (and all crew).
Like other cards by the way.
I do hope that he will succed to edit his deck within early 2009.
He works on i since 2002 about.

About Vincent van Gogh:
This painting " Wheat Field with Crows " is one of my favorite of him.
I remenber I saw it exposed in Arles (yes !!) may be 15 years ago. Like other famous painting of Vincent.
When you see ORIGINALS, it is a pictural shock because NO reproduction can give you same intensity.
Colours seems have been made... yesterday.
It is like Historical tarot decks:
When you see an original after you saw his Fac similé, you want to throw away Fac similé.

That's all folks for this morning,


Yves Le Marseillais 8-)

Bon nuit Yves ...

1-I know Flornoy thesis.But also XII is reversed ? / LA FORCE also ?
So why the others are nt wrong placed ?
I could understand an entirely deck "right to left",but a few '???

2-Sequence conveys meaning: May be the few points where I m agree with Michael Hurst,but he is absolutely right I think.
Because even for the card players MUST be a sequence an order a common understand start point just to play it.Don t you think my good ami ?
But from where to where ???
Well here I again post here that number mean place (Just as Yves 1-Eugim 2 et cetera...)
Numbering someone or something is to attempt to "place " it so related to others,thus here we begin to assemble a sequence.
Which is the unique card that is numbered and not named ? / Of course ... XIII
So XIII give to us the answer,and now that give me the chance to think about the direction of the death,so where is she going to...
-So now we have place and direction... / So tell me my good amigo why allways aside Noblet both LE MAT and XIII,are going to the same side ? /Why one have a walking red stick and death has a red stick ending on a blade ?

3-About Vincent.../ If you saw the original what can I say ? -So nothing aside that you re a lucky guy and now you can understand how far I live from the "Center" where the things simply "happen",and of course related to Tarot.
So I m web dependant as you surely understand...

4-When your colleague will log in here ?

Ps / here I attached another paint done as an homage to Vincent (Van Saint so Saint Vincent)

Hi Eugim,

1- About Jean Claude Flornoy thesis, I understand your questions...
I suggest that you mail to him (his wife Roxane is american and read and speak english) and that you informs us about his full reply (if you get any).
It would be good to informs us on this point.

2-You wrote: Sequence conveys meaning: Well here I again post here that number mean place (Just as Yves 1-Eugim 2 et cetera...):
Ha! ha!ha! You are fully wrong about your classification by putting me as 1 and you on 2nd rank.
We are both human, passionate, intuitive, stuborn (rather let's say ;) ), undiplomat (from time to time... and I like it ! as said Mike Jagger), and full of qqualitys (only our ennemys saw our defaults of course ;) ).

So no complex, no rank, no medals, no honnours, no diplomas, no POWER.
My God I wrote all this on MONDAY !! This week will be great ...

3-You wrote: "About Vincent.../ If you saw the original what can I say ? -So nothing aside that you re a lucky guy and now you can understand how far I live from the "Center" where the things simply "happen",and of course related to Tarot.
So I m web dependant as you surely understand..."
You are not alone in your far away country Argentina because we can share decks, opinions, and... welcome you if you are ready to visit Old €urope you origine land.
Welcome in Marseille (on a Word Tarot Conference in 2012 ).

4-You wrote: When your colleague will log in here ?
When he had finished and published his deck.
He will also build up a web site and I will participate on it.

Thanks for your new paint. I planned to be an artist on next life.
For present life and am already book up

I hope that we do not bother all Forum by occupying wrong place (Dating François Chosson Tarot thread).
Webmaster could move us to an empty room of Tarot House with two rocking chairs to keep on chating about various Tarot items.

Hve a nice day

Yves

Salute Bon Ami...

1-First,I m not quaified to send an e mail to Monsieur Flornoy.
I saw that your are a member of another forum,a French forum,so I think that you are more able for this work...
2-No ranks here or there Yves,were only an attempt to made an example about place the cards related to the others,so sequence,
As told many times to JMD aside oours Tarot de Marseilles investigations afteralll for the "pueblo" so people was a card game,thusa if we have an IIX instead an XII,so I think my querido amigo,we have a problem here...
Why ?
-Simple my bon ami... // We supose both are lliterate,so we are guding by images signals / Right ?
So if we have IIX after XI / What are we talking about here ??? / So aren t we perplexed surely ???

-About the paint its yours,surely I could sign it an dedicate it to you.
-About Mr james whom I respect,well Tarot de Marseilles is about life,so I expect he don t mind about these "off" ways threads...

-Chosson really and usuallly increase my usual cervical horrible ache..
Tell to me why on XI card the left feet is so closest to conver and why on another he is so far ?
Why on VI card the angel is so closest and by contrast to the others (Noblet and Dodal ) so distamt. ?
But if we comapares Chosson and Conver,Chosson Angell seems to more baroque as Rubens ?

Eugim

-

Others odds connections Yves...
CAVALIER DE BATONS : Chosson and Conver,the same carnal layer on the horse,the same flower on the left leg of the CAVALIER...
See TEMPERANCE. / Conver- and Chosson just for an example. / here i attached close up of the faces.
So to which another deck could you link that ? / i mean that close Art engrave line of depiction ?
I mean it s a deck that defy all patterns,,, (Just for me of course)

-So where are going to date Chosson ?

Ps / I allways regret on a very bitter sense my lack of words to express,my very deep feel and thoughts...
Too Tango ? // may be... (surely,but not far form the thruth,beieve me )


Eugim

Bonsoir Monsieur Yves ...
BTW,Each time I begin with this I remember Gustave Courbet picture http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... et_010.jpg
I see as you,when you talk about people and economic Power (But I don t want James delete me or you )

-Many coincidences on style I found between Chosson and Conver for not assume him around or 1672.
-See for example the hat of LA FORCE,her somewhat hide right feet.
-On the other side the front of her dress around the cleavage has a different design,so imaging Salma Hayek with Conver cleavage "zone" should be different than with the Chosson one ... / Don t you think bon ami ?
-XVIIII card:Two male children with the same red neck ring,same attitude.
And again my good friend Monsieur Jean Dodal showing two male childs with neck rings.
As far I know Yves just only your compatriote Flornoy strongly pointed that Noblet show a male an a female.
-And finally just see,that two show as I want to,that its not merely a detective story about 6 or 8,but a work on a research way,so to investigate the entirely deck,comparing to others,"feeling" engrave art line et cetera.

-As de Epee Conver and Chosson /below): Contrast them with Noblet and Dodal where the thumb it s clearly seen...
-So I as allways I see details that defying time and style classifications like Tarot de Marseille 1 or 2
Details jump from one deck to another ...
-As de Baton:Conver and Chosson: See the thumb also in both

-Suppose you buy my old bycicle with many "Eugims marks ",so surely Yves re named re worked to put "his" mark of his own on it so to insurance that bycicle it s now of "Yves" / Right ?
Well after all may be that you like some "Eugim " marks I did so you concluded not deleted,so we have here a new style mix.
-Well that s what I think about history of Tarot de Marseilles ( And forgive me my friend here... )
I believe in a common tree trunk connection with not obviously details common exaclty meet or match,but with a common meaning source,and where details of style art line enrgrave aside basics style pattern placed in time,could find on decks not necesarly related.
And that s why I allways strongly pointed that is useless to link to Italians deck,because Frenchmen reworked all the pattern deck. (Begining with TEMPERANCE )

-Do you think Yves that the engravers knew others deck did before ? . So thus leave place to influences ?

So where place HIM bon ami ? // Or best,How ?

Eugim

Marseille Thursday 22nd may 2008

Hi Eugim,

I can't reply to all your questions but will giove me my opinion about this point:

You wrote:
-Do you think Yves that the engravers knew others deck did before ? . So thus leave place to influences ?
So where place HIM bon ami ? // Or best,How ?


About engravers:
Yes they knew other decks because... they were not attached for years to a single workshop but were moving from town to town, region to region for some of them or minimum from a cardmaker workshop to another one competitor/employer in same city or even street.
We have some records about this FACTS and in my opinion (and as an ex handworker ) when you do a job, you learn from your colleagues, from other engravers like you and from your various moves, technical books, tools, and Tarot decks exemplar you see/collect as to feed and improve your hability to work.
It is like Compagnions of French Tour (Compagnons du Tour de France) who still presently learns from other region, habits, knowhow ect...
So, yes influence is permanent and was during this ancient times.

Secondly, about François Chosson deck location in Time scale ... Frankly I don't know yet and Ross Caldwell hypothesis is interresting regarding 2 of Deniers details (see upper on thread).

Everyday we have occasion to learn something and for exemple yesterday I discovered a brand new Tarot (unnamed for the moment) dated... 17th century !!
A Tarot de Marseille pattern that I shot with my numeric camera.
May be a new Chosson mysterious deck ha ha!!! 8-)
A new Holly Grail to hunt

Best

Yves

Good Night my friend...
1-Yves I m not qualified to ask Flornoy so I think you "Must " do it
2-I supposed earier art engravers travelled from a town to another,so to one Master to another... /So you re right my good bon ami as I feel my point of view.
So that could may be help on another thread to investigate the IIX "problem"
3-I m working on an atempt to makes my old pen drive to work so to make scans barely acceptable so to make my IEAN DODAL (my caro amicci ) Deck ( After All)
4-Yves ...

So you find the Greatgrandpha ? / Just do it Brother !!! // Then we are going to analyse "He" beacuse it s seems thaht s it s nothing coming around ..--

My Best m y Compagnon / Of course they were travelling as LE MAT (Our Silent Bro.....) /Le Compagnon.


Eugim

Bonjour Yves...

1-I ve been thinking that you MUST open a new thread with your new "National Geographic" Marseilles Discovery ...
So don t be too "Devil" and post here so "Just" do it Brother... (Otherwise as the telephone girl say "Please wait for assistance") // I mean "This is a message form Michael Corleone .../ Get it ? ...
BTW/ Did you know that our Tango Godfather Carlos Gardel born in Toulouse ? (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gardel )
2-Returning to Chosson "problem" I been working on Iean Dodal deck and I made some photographic impressions,so kiding my good bon ami Antoine here to match as possible the "colour tone" of the deck and I found as I told before the opium bulb of the 2 de coupee connection again...
3-Tres bien,so tres jolie your catched eye about my remarked LE MAT and XIII topic named / unnumbered...
For me there is a cat on a wardrobe ( so a fishy on ) ¿ ? -
That s simply "Cut" the row sequence... //Remember as you think that live us with 2 rows ( I - XII // XIII // XIIII-XX // XXI (End of the game ... )
4-I m been searching about Medieval French Bestiary a topic very so tres recommended BTW ... and I found Medieval engrave pattern very ( I mean "Very" ) useful but now I m think that I m not going to give the link until you Yves give us your "Discovery" ... / " Courrier from Michael Corleone " - Did you understand ?
5-You don t replay to me about Salma Hayek... / Don t you like her ?
6-About my thesis that Chosson is so nearest to Conver just see XXI comparisson au dessous ...
7-BTW.... - Conver-Chosson conection // Do you remember 3 the BATON ? / aren t they brothers ???
8-BTW // I think that in Pips the sang connection it s more obviouslly ...

Good weekend my bon ami,my bon Compagnon !!!

Eugim

Hello Eugim and all,

So Eugim you think that I must open a new thread about Marseille City ?
Be patient amigo (again): I will (let's say within 12 months) build up a web site about some Marseille Tarot places and I hope to persuade some of you to ask for a Tarot Conference in Marseille.

About Carlos Gardel... I know nothing until you wrote his name. Nobody is perfect

About Salma Hayek: I just saw her on Desperados and on Wikipedia thanks to your message.
Thanks you Eugim because it was a nice occasion to see his... how to say ? STRONG Advantages !!
Do you think she is attracted by french tarot freaks ? Anyway she is already married to a frenchy isn'it ?

Medieval French Bestiary is very rich and I think that Tarot was very inspired by before Middle Age period and also Middle Age period.
But don't wait about any departure from my side. Just do it !!
But tell me: Are you talking to me 8-) ???
I love this sentence ha ha ha !!!
First day I will saw you, I would like that you start with this phrase with me: Just for Fun

About Chosson and Conver:
May be Conver copied Chosson and made some mistakes.
I am not sure but Chosson is realy an interresting deck and probably more close to original than Conver...
It is only an intuition from my side for the moment.
As many of us I thought that Conver was THE deck about Marseille Pattern.
Now I am sure that there is more accurate decks and Chosson is a leading deck like Pierre Madenié (thanks again Kenji ;) )
But game is not over and I still hunt for unknow decks that still exist in dusty Museums and hidden places.

Kaplan traced road like some other passionates and I am sure that new historical decks will comes to my eyes within coming years.
Why ?: Because I search and it is as simple as that.
Programs you brain and heart and you will find like me and other seekers.
And even in Argentina Tarot wait for you.

Buone Noche Amigo

Yves







2-Returning to Chosson "problem" I been working on Iean Dodal deck and I made some photographic impressions,so kiding my good bon ami Antoine here to match as possible the "colour tone" of the deck and I found as I told before the opium bulb of the 2 de coupee connection again...
3-Tres bien,so tres jolie your catched eye about my remarked LE MAT and XIII topic named / unnumbered...
For me there is a cat on a wardrobe ( so a fishy on ) ¿ ? -
That s simply "Cut" the row sequence... //Remember as you think that live us with 2 rows ( I - XII // XIII // XIIII-XX // XXI (End of the game ... )


6-About my thesis that Chosson is so nearest to Conver just see XXI comparisson au dessous ...
7-BTW.... - Conver-Chosson conection // Do you remember 3 the BATON ? / aren t they brothers ???
8-BTW // I think that in Pips the sang connection it s more obviouslly ...