Tarot History Forum

Hi Eugim (I've scolded James, and asked him to update the post to reflect the correct spelling),

I thought that the conversation would be best removed because I thought it had wandered too far off of the original topic of dating the Chosson, (and also because so many of Michael's posts had been deleted).

I'm going to be upfront here. I don't like boxing. I don't like fighting. And I'm really not sure why these threads sometimes seem to lead to aggressive exchanges?!? It reminds me of dogs marking their territory. Good for the dogs, smells like piss to the rest of us.

Maybe this is where I am mistaken? I look at exploring tarot history as a group effort. This forum was created so that there would be a nice space for us to explore it together as, I guess, in some way a combined team... sharing and exchanging ideas, and supporting each other as we explore different aspects, (even if support sometimes mean being honestly critical).

I don't understand why this stuff has to get personal, and combative. What a waste of energies.

I continue to hope that we will build a place together where everyone feels welcome (regardless of their experience or knowledge on the subject), where members can share their own ideas for discussion (without ridicule, harassment, or indulgence), and most of all where we DO recognize that we all share a passion for this subject, and support each other on this journey.

If you feel that any of your posts should be moved back into the thread as related to the Chosson, just let me know which ones and I'll be happy to do so. I'll also put them into a new thread if you think that is appropriate. Jean-Michel and I will also review them again and see how best they may serve the conversation.
robert

Hello Robert,Mr. james and the others respected comrades here...
Just to be more clear and concise also I will point the body of my replay.(So not waist the time of anybody here)

1-I don t think that I went off the topic thread.I tried at my best to discuss with M. Hurst on a high level,but I must say that I'm fed up with him about his harsh edge ways.
2-Its clear that both came from different sources of thought,so it s not hard to see that will be barely impossible to be agree.
That s not mean not have for each other the best respect,as I have for him (At least I with regard to us)
3-For that I m agree with you that must be a place to interchange differents point of view and thought,but leaving place to tolerance and Temperance.
But is hard just for me to carry on his odd sense of humour... /And not the only with had a cross fire post " with him" as I saw here.. (and there).
4-For me "the game is over" Robert and I forget it at all because as you I think that the very important here is the topic thread.
5-When I send a post of mine I don t expect have a replay in any way I mean agree or not.
I just point my view and enjoy those of others.
For example I log in at Aeclectic 14-02-08 and since that I posted 181 times.
Could you or other tell to me in how many times I went "of" the strictly topic thread ?
I think that I allways fitted to it and the only thing I could done was sustain it with my Allchemical point of view of Tarot de Marseilles.
6-For example about Chosson dating.Many comrades here rejected my "8" thesis,but this is the few particle of which I said.
I made for example comparison of the Art style "engrave line" of this deck by contrasting to his "cousin" N. Conver,but anyone noticed it .I said that I don t expect any replay to my posts but is suggestive itself.Isn t it ?
That occured to me also at Aeclectic,so I learned just to post and release to others to think or feel what they think at last.
7-With regard to my early posts do Robert what you best consider.I don t mind (on a good sense),I can rework as I will entirely my thoughts.
BTW and just to keep out my doubt...
M. Hurst recieved also a post as I like this ?
9-Well I will return to "work" here and I beg apologize to the others comrades that could felt discommoding with the situation,but also beg that others understand that I don t like unkindly ways from any even with whom I could also be agree.So I must replay,it s my right.(I strongly think)
Just see my past behavior here and also at Aeclectic.

Well Robert I ended at VIIII point so L HERMITE,who for me depict the inner Master with his lantern of wisdom,and i think is just best for me to follow him...

My best regards for you,for JMD,for James and the good comrades here...
And now I will close this sort of "discharge" and return to work as I said.

From the very center of my heart...

Eugim

Hello Comrades...
Been a fact that we haven t Chosson dated,I think that is a passionate thread because leave us just with the cards in front of us.
So any help here aside the iconograhy itself and the contrast with others decks.

1-About the topic that One Potato pointed,I can see at ROM (Marc Rainville) site that he has three cards with no photoshop and seems very close to the others that have it.
2-Two of Deniers: I m not return here about my "8" thesis.
We haven t the number already lost,but we have the calligraphy line engrave of the letters.
Here I attached some images for comparison each others.
I m agree with Mr Caldwell that here we more than one deck author.Along with his quotation about the G.S. letters as seen at VII card and two of Coupe also,here I see that the letters of FRANCOIS are more closest with the VALET DE DENIESR than with CHOSSON letters.(calligraphy meaning)
3-Some cards reviews... (Having Conver,Vieville,Noblet,Dodal and Jean Pierre Payen at mind)
-Any code bars with regard to Conver deck.
XVIII / Allways have been said hat the Moon on profile denote Tarot de Marseille II group,so 1672 thesis don t fit for me here.
XVI / Flames go to the tower from the Sun (As Conver,so not Noblet,Dodal,Jean Pierre Payen where the flame comes from the tower toward to the Sun )
X / A green X cross at the wheel.And just for me a gryphon (As Conver) so not an sphinx at the top.
XV / The liitle devil at the left haven the 3 dots on his right breast side.The devil seems to have a torch in his left hand.
XX / The bull has no halo as on Conver
But its has on Noblet,Dodal and Jean Pierre Payen -On Vieville has it also but i see btw that the one fo the eagle isn t painted.
V/It s there the left arm of a figure at the right as on some of the others decks above mentioned but nnot in the case of Vieville and Noblet
XII / It s pointed as IIX as only also on Vieville,Dodal and Jean Pierre Payen
XVIIII / Two male boys as only Conver,Dodal and Jean Pierre Payen.
XVII / Of 1 + 7 minors stars,with regard to these 7,3 are light blue and 4 yellow as onlly the same cases of Conver and Dodal.

Well,I conclude that we have here crossed "leap" of details between the decks above mentioned,that defy all the "sacred" scholarship of many respected minds.That we already talked about once time Robert if you remember.
I mean details that define if a deck is from Tarot de Marseille 1 or 2.I mean defy an attempt to classify all the decks on a time place order so to make a sequence and a cross logical relation on an iconographic sense.

Eugim

Am I to understand, Eugim, that your main point is not so much arguing against the suggested dating, but rather the classification (as also Michael Hurst questions) of decks as Tarot de Marseille-I and Tarot de Marseille-II in the sense that the former implies an earlier design that the latter?

If that is the case, then this is of course quite feasible.

What we have are a variety of early decks (not many) that show quite a range of design (Vieville, anonymous Parisian and Noblet as circa1650 decks, as examples of quite different decks from the same time and place).

Why some amongst us still tend to consider the 'Chosson' (perhaps we should rename the deck if not truly reflecting its earlier cardmaker!) and other Conver-type decks as very likely later in design is due to careful, but perhaps somewhat prejudiced by the carefulness, as derived from model(s) that are perhaps more like the Tarot de Marseille-I mold.

As I said, however, this is perhaps not as warranted given, as pointed out by Michael, the sparcity of extent decks of various designs.

I would also suggest, in terms of nomenclature, that the various Besançon decks likely retain an element too of earlier woodblocks - the Blanche in Japan is a good example of that, displaying (apart from II and V) typical 'Tarot de Marseille-I' characteristics.

Hello JMD...
First let me clear a point.
You said : "Am I to understand, Eugim, that your main point is not so much arguing against the suggested dating, but rather the classification "
Well this is precisely the center point / On one side I want or attempt to arguing about the dating.
For that I suggest analyze the letters François versus Chosson and contrasting with the Valet de deniers,so to sustain Ross Caldwell thesis that here we have "two differents hands" author deck.
On the other side by looking for F. Chosson own characteristic iconographic details and then contrasting with others decks,try to "place" him in time.
Then I found as many times before that some details defy this attempt.
For example we have the eternal problem about XII card numbering so if were there negligence or if it is inverted numbered or not.
Straight; Conver and Noblet // Inverted: Dodal,Vieville and Jean Pierre Payen
Differents place and time between them I think.

Then once I mentioned the Baroque art engrave line of Chosson that even his cousin Conver hadn t.
Baroque art time took place between 1600 and barely or around 1750,so that covered the time and place of all of the decks mentioned.
See the angel at VI card and think about Rubens angels for example.

My best regards,

Eugim

In terms of the "IIX", we should perhaps remember that for the mindset of earlier usage of Roman numerals, it did not matter that much. Certainly it was not standard, but there was only additive usage, not subtractive (so 'IV' is six, not four, as eg).

We should perhaps then find "IIX" in various places without real import, though it's a nice 'play on image', in that both figure and numeral representation are inverted, in the number sense, without any loss of meaning.

Hello JMD,nice night to meet you...

1-I want to specify strongly that here we have I think an awesome opportunity to inquire into a deck undated.
2-I m working on an sketch about deck structure,so sequence but not on a meaning sense,I mean strictly facts sustain card iconographic sequence.
BTW If there could be a few topic where I could be agree with M. Hurst is with his motto "Sequence conveys meanings"
For me is an "Iron" or titanium start point ...
3- You said to me that s equal XII or IIX...
Well I checked all my own library and I didn t found that equality you mentioned.
Here as I can t scan my books, I copy Wikipedia excerpts (and also see querido amigo ) the link between the topic 7entirely also.

( Λ + V // About my thesis about or related X card and also for IIX and XII. )

"Eight on a counting stick was eight tallies, IIIIΛIII, or the eighth of a longer series of tallies; either way, it could be abbreviated ΛIII (or VIII), as the existence of a Λ implies four prior notches.

IIII vs. IV
The notation of Roman numerals has varied through the centuries. Originally, it was common to use IIII to represent four, because IV represented the Roman god Jupiter, whose Latin name, IVPPITER, begins with IV. The subtractive notation (which uses IV instead of IIII) has become universally used only in modern times. For example, Forme of Cury, a manuscript from 1390, uses IX for nine, but IIII for four. Another document in the same manuscript, from 1381, uses IV and IX. A third document in the same manuscript uses IIII, IV, and IX. Constructions such as IIIII for five, IIX for eight or VV for 10 have also been discovered. Subtractive notation arose from regular Latin usage: the number 18 was duodeviginti or “two from twenty”; the number 19 was undeviginti or "one from twenty". The use of subtractive notation increased the complexity of performing Roman arithmetic, without conveying the benefits of a full positional notation system.

4-So my dear friend I don t think that s equal. / See the point about XII.(IIX for 8 )
(The marks on the sticks,very obviously and clear reference.As human being we are /Just to count ships ...
5-So on Tarot de Marseilles we have to analyze 4,9,14 and 19 .
Let me be somewhat "rogue" here...
You re JMD,following your point of view you can also could be JDM,so Jacques de Molay returned ...
Isn t it ?
6-You said earlier...
How much ?
We are at Chosson thread,I see closely now only Jean Dodal deck ( A deck that s it s growing in me too much btw,y many details) )And surely promptly I will leave Vievile for Robert "Meaning" Le Pendu the torch to go ahead...
BTW /My brother Marcello will fly to Lisboa 26/05 do you know a good place too buy Jean Dodal Monsieur Flornoy deck ?
Just compares with Chosson the XVIII.
Dodal has the Moon in front of the Sun and Chosson the Moon on profile.
In both cases XII card it s numbered IIX
So where place Chosson... / Tarot de Marseille 1 or 2 ?
BTW / Looking for the masquarade of M. Filippas I enter at his site and surprise he see as me XVIII as an Eclipse.
(Remember our friendly discussion ? )

7-Just suppose for a moment we are two Tarot de Marseilles card players each other in front of us.We are barely on 1710. (Just please imagine this)
That drives to me to the question about who currently play Tarot ...
Cronic said elsewhere and everybody.Suppose thus we are two barely or absolutely illiterates (surely was it )
So we have images cards and the numbered sequence of them.
Don t you think that should be somewhat shocking IIX my querido amigo ?
Aside Vieville irresoluted problem about reversal,I opted to choose Dodal because after analyzed the "Art line" I deduced that Dodal as an earlier deck as it was is more closest than Noblet (CLearly Noblet XII is XII )

BTW / Did you like my Alchemical approach as you encouraged me ?

Best regards,

Eugim

I insist to attempt to place Chosson in place and time just by the images signals.
Here we have Chosson LE MAT and Dodal LE FOL. see the shape of the head and the red stripe descending from his front head.As I not found anywhere even in Conver also.

(Btw,On a French-Spanish dictionary published in 1949,I found that Mât (So not Mat) means stick.)

Eugim

Hello Eugim,

Many Mat have red stripe on front head ! I don't understand why you can't find it.

About Mat signification in french and about ship, of course it exist and it mean piece of wood (a log) who support vessel sails. A mat is named a mast in navigation terms.

I works with an electronic french english pocket translator and it is useful for improving my bloody broken english .

Come esta mi amigo ?

Yves The froggy

Yves Le Marseillais wrote:
About Mat signification in french and about ship, of course it exist and it mean piece of wood (a log) who support vessel sails. A mat is named a mast in navigation terms.

One of the meanings of the Milanese~Italian word tarocch is also wood, as tree, log, trunk but also related to a game of hazard, throw of dice (Italian synonyms in italics followed by French equivalents):

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

From:
Vocabolario milanese-italiano-francese by Eugenio Cappelletti (1848) Dalla Tipografia Boniardi-Pogliani di E Besozzi

Translations of Italian-French synonyms of the Milanese Tarocch:

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat. Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.

If Tarocch has the same semantic range as tronco here then a meaning of loggerhead, block-headed dunce would connect with the possibility explored elsewhere of tarocch meaning 'fool'.

Pedale: a foote, a base, a foundation, the stocke or roote of a tree or any thing else, a foote-stale, a foote-stoole, a supporter, a stake or forke to beare vp any vine, hops, or trees, a prop, or stay. Also the measure or space of a foote. Also a mans stocke, wealth, or substance. Also socks, or thin dancing pumps. Vsed also for a mans off-spring, stocke, lineage, blood, or descent.

Toppo: a counterbuffe, a counter shocke at tilt./ Related to Toppáre ~ to counter-shocke or giue a counter-buffe. Also to finde or meete withall by chance. Also to snatch or take away. Also to set, to cast at, to plaie at or hold the by or vie at any game namely at dice. Also to put to a dore and make it fast with a haspe or latch or wodden locke. / A tóppogiuócare a tóppo, to play at gresco or hazzard, and then to set at euery chance or cast, or to set and cast at the by.

Chantier: m. A Wood-mongers, or Tymber-sellers, yard; also, a Staulder, or Wood-pile; also, a Vine-supporting pole, or stake (whether it stand vpright, or lye, as a crosse barre, ouerthwart; and (hence) also, as Treillis, or a rayle for the same purpose; also, a Stoope, or Pile, vnderpropping the banke of a riuer; also, a Gauntrie, or Stilling, for Hogs heads, &c. to stand on; also, a Tresle to saw Tymber on.

Chicot: A stub, or stumpe; or as Chiquot: m. A scale in the root, or end of a nayle; also, a sprig, or shoot of a tree; also, the stumpe of a tooth

Souche: f. The stock, trunke, or bodie of a tree; a log; also, the maine stock, or direct line of a pedegree, progenie, or familie; also, as Souchet; or, the root of the wild, or English Galingale. Souche commune. The descent of many brothers or cousens, from one father, mother, grandfather, or grandmother. Tant que tige fait souche, elle ne branche iamais.

The geneological tree was a common pageant or stage in the triumphal entries of the king, with explicit parallels made between the geneology of the King to that of Christ; of which we may note that the geneological tree of Christ of 77 generations was also tradionally split into subsets of 56 and 21.

The geneologies of Christ were developed as multiples of 7:

St. Matthew consciously omitted a number of names in his genealogical list, in order to reduce them to the required multiple of seven.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

In the earliest extent rules of the game the term "Tarot" relates specifically to the seven cards XXI, 0, I and the four Kings. In the Tarot de Marseille too we may perhaps see the Triumphal Prince (whose entry into the city is celebrated with a representation of the geneological tree) in trump VII, the Chariot.

Kwaw

Definitions of synonyms and translated words:
John Florio, Italian english Dictionary and Cotgroves French English.