Tarot History Forum

I'm on the tablet upstairs now, one finger typing, so can't be my mellifluent self. But don't sulk! I have some thoughts, they'll just have to wait until tomorrow.

Hello Roberto, nice to meet you. Hello Ross, a pleasure to read you. Roberto, don't sulk. Keep hope. I have some thoughts about the transition from Petrarch to the tarot sequences we know. I suppose other scholars have already proposed similar ideas. For example, Mike Howard speculates about creating tables with rows and columns. Me too. That's the way to see Petrarch in the tarot sequence. The subject is complex, and I need to review my notes before I dare to summarize. To start, I just have a couple of thoughts. I read somewhere that Petrarch's six triumphs didn't really have a very defined order in Petrarch's original text, and that's why some editors who published the poem of the triumphs used a different sequence for the six triumphs. In any case, there is a defined order in the paintings and cassones from the 1440s. They are two trios, as you know. One trio is earthly and the other is heavenly. The usual sequence of six trumps alternates the trumps by alternately taking one of each trio. This is well known. I'm not inventing anything. So, it's not difficult to see some structural logic in the sequence. I have a difficulty with the Chastity trump. I think the Devil's position in the sequence is a good place for Chastity. I've thought that perhaps the High Priestess (in the Tarot) or Faith (in the Modrone) was Chastity and that she swapped places with the Devil, assuming she was initially placed next to the Pope, both coming from the Karnöffel deck. I conceived this theory a couple of years ago. However, I have no evidence for anything like that. And Chastity could be another card, perhaps the Chariot or one of the three usual virtues. Furthermore, the earliest evidence for a Devil in the Tarot doesn't seem to date before around 1480, so I doubt that the Devil existed early on alongside the Pope. There are some difficulties in understanding the generative evolution of the Tarot sequence starting from Petrarch and other topics, but Chastity is the one that has me stuck. Ultimately, I see reasons for you to remain hopeful and not sulk.

As for the numbers annotated in cards such as Alessandro Sforza and Charles VI, it seems they were written a few years after those cards were created, but it's still interesting. In favor of the Chariot above the three virtues, we have Croce and also the Rothschild-Arts cards, which retain the trumps from the Chariot upwards, without the three virtues. However, I think that perhaps before Rothschild (1490?) the Bolognese order was the one that has been preserved to the present day, with the Chariot next to Love. That is, I have doubts about the early position of the Chariot in Bologna.

Magic ,

Petrarca and PMB-1 (14-cards)
--------------------------------------------
Eternity ...... Angel ..... appears occasionally in the given PMB-form in"Trionfi" texts pictures
Time ...... Hermit (Time)
Fame ...... Justice (woman with sword) ..... appears occasionally in the given PMB-form in "Trionfi" texts pictures
Death ...... Death
Chastity ...... Chariot with woman (bride-journey)
Love ...... Love (marriage scene)

This was detected long after the original 5x14-theory.

Huck wrote: 18 Apr 2025, 10:47 Magic ,

Petrarca and PMB-1 (14-cards)
--------------------------------------------
Eternity ...... Angel ..... appears occasionally in the given PMB-form in"Trionfi" texts pictures
Time ...... Hermit (Time)
Fame ...... Justice (woman with sword) ..... appears often in the given PMB-form in "Trionfi" texts pictures
Death ...... Death
Chastity ...... Chariot with woman (bride-journey)
Love ...... Love (marriage scene)

This was detected long after the original 5x14-theory.

Iconographically, Justice would almost certainly have been read as Justice, wouldn't she? The World, for me, is a much stronger iconographic match for Fame. (Also detected long ago, no particular theory).

Robert, Magic,

Fame has scales and sword occasionally

viewtopic.php?p=17682#p17682

Between others ...
Robert, if you don't see the picture, try this ...
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/sc-85.jpg
Robert
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/sc-82.jpg

In the case of the PMB-1 picture (14 cards only cause of the 5x14-theory) there is only 1 virtue, not 4. If one follows the 5x14-theory, then it makes sense, that the picture means Fame, not Justice.

Huck wrote: 18 Apr 2025, 11:45 Robert, Magic,

Fame has scales and sword occasionally

viewtopic.php?p=17682#p17682

Between others ...

Robert, if you don't see the picture, try this ...
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/sc-85.jpg

Hi Huck, I'm getting a security warning associated with your a-tarot.eu site. Do you have the ability to update the ssl certificate on that site? If so, I think that will probably fix this problem.

The pictures are okay, the browsers have a problem.

Huck wrote: 18 Apr 2025, 12:25 The pictures are okay, the browsers have a problem.

Yes, because the site says that it doesn't have a ssl certificate (or, that's usually the problem at least). This needs to be fixed on the site and then all the images will appear again, until then, people will not be able to see your pictures and will be warned not to follow the links. This is a distraction from the forum, so just reply and I will delete this conversation, but until you fix it, it is useless to post links to a site that isn't secure. PM me and I will be happy to help as much as I can.


ADDED:
I checked, it looks like SSL certificate:
https://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker. ... a-tarot.eu

ALSO ADDED:
and... these are usually available for free. Many providers offer it as part of their service, AND they offer a paid version with extras, but this is unlikely to be needed. So, you probably don't need to pay for this, if you're looking at one and it wants money, keep looking.

Hi Huck

Thanks for the thoughts on Petrarchan equivalences in PMB. I suppose if Justice were Fame, then they would have added Justice to the cards added later, which have Temperance and Strength. Now I'm more interested in what I commented here about your Sola Busca proposal:

viewtopic.php?p=26943#p26943

HUCK *********
Were you inspired by the two Rorhschild-Arts groups (top row, bottom row) to form the two groups of five heroes that you equate with Lucca Tarot trumps? I've detected that coincidence. Have you seen it? I think it's important.
********

Robert, what is JMD when you wrote:

"The only explanation, I suppose is an even older order (channeling our beloved JMD now), an "ur-order", that got forgotten or replaced quickly"

Ross, did you say that you have ideas about Petrarca and Bolognese Tarocchi?

Hi Magic Moon,
JMD is Jean-Michel David. The history of this forum is that JMD and I used to co-moderate the History Forums on Aeclectic Tarot (far too) many years ago. Many of the original members of this forum used to hold historical discussions on Aeclectic. He's JMD on the forum, I was Le Pendu. We started this forum as an alternative and when Aeclectic shut down many members from there came here to continue our discussions.

JMD was an original moderator here, too. He has been holding Tarot History workshops for decades and has published several books on Tarot. Four Hares is his website.

JMD got involved with more "real life" pursuits and hasn't posted on the forum in many years, but... he is still the person that hosts this forum, so the very fact that we are having this discussion is that JMD is providing room on his server for us to do so. I'm very grateful for this.

The forum was started in 2008, the same time I was moving from California to England. I ended up going back to uni and with JMD doing other things, we invited Ross to join as one of the moderators. Over the years, I've had less to do with the forum as I've become a full time teacher and frankly, have been off following other pursuits...and Ross has handled most of the forum on his own... bless him.

Sorry of the long explanation, but I think it is important to recognise a couple of things here. JMD was hugely influential in the Tarot community and is still supporting us even to this day. Ross has worked almost entirely on his own as the main moderator of the forum and I am exceptionally grateful to him for the time and effort, he's the most knowledgable Tarot historian I know and I think it's wonderful that we have him on this site. I am very Mercurial and am likely to be distracted by the next shiny thing, but for now, am completely dedicated to ensuring that the forum is doing well and set up to allow the next generation of members to learn from, enjoy and join in on the conversation.

[Another off-topic post, aren't there any moderators around here??]