Tarot History Forum

a) Thanks Huk.

b)

. that's a little strange, but it is a satire, so why not?

Lol. Ok. I think its a good hypotesis, very clever. I cant compare the original, because I dont know the German medieval (neither contemporany ). However, by your description, I think it is a correct hypothesis. And Johannes speech several times about Cessolis.

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mmfilesi wrote: I cant compare the original, because I dont know the German medieval (neither contemporany ).
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There is not much to know ...Ingold has only a few sentences for it.

"
1. Nun sind auf dem kartenspil fier küng mit iren wauppen, und hat ieglicher under im XIII karten, das macht an ainer sum LII, und hat ieglichü das zaychen irs küngs.
2. Etlich kartenspil hat dar zu fier küngin und fier junkfrawen,
3. etlich haben den ackerman, den edelman, den wuchrer, den pfaffen, die toypel, den riffian, den wirt;
4. und gewint ie ains dem andern ab:
dem edelman der wuchrer, dem wuchrer der pfaff, dem pfaffen das täppelweib, dem täppelweib der riffian, dem riffian der wirt, dem wirt der weinman, dem weinman wider umb der pauman der den wein pauwen sol, der nimpt das gelt wider von dem wirt."

1 - tells, that the card game has 52 cards parted in 4 suits. Each suit has a king ...
2 - describes a deck with 4 queens and 4 junkfrawn (as Ober and Unter)
3 - describes 8 figures of another deck (for Ober and Unter position)
4 - declares the ranking of the 8 figures

Ingold takes both decks as "dangerous" and uses his moralization to speak against card playing

If I place Ingold's ranking (from top to bottom - the pauman is high, the nobleman is low, according his information) beside the row of Cessolis and the row of the chess officers, I have this:

Pauman/Ackermann .... Farmer ... Rook
Weinman ... Smith ... Knight
Wirt ... Barber ... Bishop
Riffian ... Merchant ... King
Toypel/Täppelweib ... Physician ... Queen
Pfaff ... Innkeeper - relates to "Wirt" ... Bishop
Wuchrer ... Doorkeeper ... Knight
Edelman ... Messenger ... Rook

Then we see in the colored part that, what remembers traditional chess iconography in a manner, that a contemporary observer could identify the similarity to the original, but the rest is changed to make a joke and the satire, cause the story should tell in the opinion of the hidden poet, that finally the pauman, who grows the vine, wins (and with him vine seller and innkeeper), and that the others will lose.
Well, it's easy to identify, that the artist had the perspective of a Vine-Pauman somewhere in the region of Strassburg (a vine producing region) - probably sitting a little drunken in a pub - and he feels very subjective about the rest of the world.

It's not Ingold, who makes the joke, it's a deck, that he describes and that he takes as scandalous.

Thanks Huck!!!

Then i read this...

Now I only go to the forum for post this link:

http://books.google.es/books?id=C-A-AAA ... da&f=false

At 17 june, Filppo its yet dux mediolani for Milan. (And in the comentary in this bock, the date of "accidental murder of Facino" its too 16 My.

It's not Ingold, who makes the joke, it's a deck, that he describes and that he takes as scandalous.

The deck exist really???????

I understand its only a literary deck, imaginated by Ingold!

mmfilesi wrote:

It's not Ingold, who makes the joke, it's a deck, that he describes and that he takes as scandalous.

The deck exist really???????
I understand its only a literary deck, imaginated by Ingold!

No, it's simply a deck, that he knew. Or at least - he describes is as an existing deck. Why should he lie about it?
His text is a preaching against "bad games" - surely he talked about objects, which really existed.

Formidable!!!!!! Great!!!! Thanks Huck.

And, do you think is a sort of Karnofell?

mmfilesi wrote:Formidable!!!!!! Great!!!! Thanks Huck.

And, do you think is a sort of Karnofell?

The description of Mysner (ca. 1450) and that, what we know of later rules, are different.

But it might well be, that the two games described by Ingold and also Karnöffel (and others) were based on 8 trumps. The basic Schafkopf rules have the 4 Ober and 4 Unter as trumps and they have natural rules, Ober higher than Unter and between the Ober and Unter row according a suit ranking, in the German order "Eichel, Gras, Herz and then Schellen" or in French suits clubs-spades-hearts-diamonds.

The Michelino deck (and the forerunner JvR) would then be then only an extension from 8 to 16 trumps. Naturally the actual Schafkopf game has a lot of additional and complicating rules and older games will have had this, too.
There are many games known by name and Karnöffel is only one of them. In the later time it develops, that Karnöffel becomes rather successful, but around 1450-1460 this is not so clear.

Perfect Huck. Thanks a lot for the answer. Now I understand better.

Please, another two cuestion

a) I read in wiki - Spanish, the Schafkopf have 14 triumphs:

4 x 2 (ober + unter) = 8 natural

+ Ace, k, 10, 9, 8, 7 of the suit as designed triumph = 6

14 triumphs, as PMB.

Please, can you said me its ok or its error of wiki spanish?

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schafkopf

b) do you know the date of the first Schafkopf?

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Another cuestion.

In the Ingold Deck, I find a similar concept to the dances of death. It is far, but there is something curious. In the dances of death, only the hermit and the good farmer are save. In Ingold's deck, everyone loses least vintner (the peasant wine). I think its a old root of the Bundschuh movement and similar (narrland )

Please, can do you said what think about this?

mmfilesi wrote:I read in wiki - Spanish, the Schafkopf have 14 triumphs:

4 x 2 (ober + unter) = 8 natural

+ Ace, k, 10, 9, 8, 7 of the suit as designed triumph = 6

14 triumphs, as PMB.

If a suit is selected as trump, then the number of trumps changes. But the base is "8 trumps". "14 trumps" depends on the size of the deck, Ingold's decks have for instance 52 cards. If you play with so many cards, you would have with chosen trump suit 19 cards.

do you know the date of the first Schafkopf?

It's first noted with this name in ca. 1700.
But the old decks were painted with two military figures ("marshalls", Ober and Unter). Ingold's remark confirms, that a sort of "Schafkopf rule" existed. The Michelino deck rule (it's somewhat rudimentary) behaves similar, though with 16 trumps.
For the Imperatori decks it's assumable, that they probably had 8 trumps, cause "VIII Imperatori" are noted in a document. Karnöffel had something like 7 or 8 trumps. The Trappola deck, rather farspread and often used in its structure, uses 3 male court card and mostly with military outfit. This all fits with the idea, that the basic game had the idea, that Ober and Unter were trumps. And Schafkopf is played in the region, where possibly the first greater European card production developed.

In the Ingold Deck, I find a similar concept to the dances of death. It is far, but there is something curious. In the dances of death, only the hermit and the good farmer are save. In Ingold's deck, everyone loses least vintner (the peasant wine). I think its a old root of the Bundschuh movement and similar (narrland )

The region of Strassburg (Master Ingold, also Johannes of Rheinfelden) had been a cultural center in this time, another of comparable importance would be Nurremberg. Around Strassburg the Bundschuh movement developed, though this had been later than Ingold. Also the "Narrenschiff" is from this region, also later. Strassburg, Freiburg and Basel are on the way to Italy, and travellers, who wished to take the trading route of the river Rhine, which automatically leads to the cultural center Burgund, came this way from Italy. Nurremberg had a position at another trading route, in 14th century of importance cause its connection to Prague.
In Southern Germany are many mountains.

Great Huck!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks a lot. Very good.