Tarot History Forum

Hi friends!

I read in this thread something about a condottiero escaping from a tower. And also I read something about the Grial?

I cant remember where, and now i cant find it. Sorry.

I think the meaning may be different.
2. This card represents the fame, but also represents the world of Visconti. It is the world's under his crown. I think the knight its Filippo Maria. We cant see well the Biscio because the flag is bent.
3 - 4. Filipp Maria traveled very little. He didn't like out of his cave... But he liked go to Cusago, her refuge, a small town near Milan, with plenty of hunting and fishing. It was his oasis.

In Cusago built a red castle. Almost no painting, but we can see a little remains.
To go to Cusago, sometimes go in a small boat (called the "Carretta") through a channel that connects Abbiategrasso and Gaggiano.

5 - Probabily its Santa Maria di Monzoro, but i am not sure. Its a old church near Cusago, in the road Milano-Cusago.
http://www.chiesadimilano.it/or4/or?uid ... oid=421965

6 - Probabily its Genova, the great conquest of Filippo Maria (1421- 1436)

1 - Probabily its Milan.

Well... its a hipotesys

EDITI:

Two interesting links to Cusago

1. Visconti travells to cusago:

http://books.google.es/books?id=1m8PAAA ... go&f=false

2. The red castel:

http://www.marcocesana.it/percorsi/cusa ... cusago.htm

I agree that the same person did both the Lancelot and the Cary-Yale, and that it probably came from the Bembo workshop. I just think that's all we know. Can you show me anything definitely of Bonifacio's (not, of course the Lancelot or the cards, both of which are in question) that is similar?

You can find where in the thread there are posts using particular words by putting the word in the "search this topic" box at the start of the thread. Then scroll down to the earliest post and work your way up. At least that's how I find things.

I actually presented my Grail argument first on Aeclectic, at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=20, using Lancelot among other things. That's where this "Investigation" thread started. At that time I attributed both the CY and the Lancelot to Bonifacio Bembo; but Welch has convinced me that such an attribution would be premature (see viewtopic.php?f=11&t=365&start=120#p5200, find "Welch").

I like your theory about the knight, except that I don't understand why there would be two people in the ferryboat. Perhaps there is a private story. Or else it is a modified version of a card done for an earlier deck, originally without the person sitting, modified for the specific purpose of designating a publically identifiable person, such as Piccinino. Do you know when Filippo did his improvements to Cusago, and when he started going by canal? That would give us the earliest possible date for a version of the card with your interpretation. If at some point he stopped going, due to physical difficulties or increased reclusiveness, that might suggest that a card with that interpretation would not have been initiated after that date. I see on one of your links that he didn't build it, just added floors and decorations. It was built in 1354. I see on your other link the date 1423 as a possible year for the initiation of improvements, when Bruneleschi was called in (if I read the Italian correctly). If so, that gives 1423 to some unspecified later date as the time your theory would apply to some version of the card. Your reference to the canal trips is still in the 1420's. That seems to me to be a reasonable time for an early version of the card.

I don't see why, so far, your Visconti theory excludes my Grail theory. I would phrase it this way: the Grail Knight is Filippo, going to his Grail Castle, Cusago, a place not of this world. Filippo loved Grail stories and French romances generally, I gave the reference much earlier in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=365&start=10#p4604, third paragraph) as well as in the post on Aeclectic. I would not be surprised if Filippo commissioned the Lancelot, although since there was a Grail fresco sequence in Mantua, it might have been the Gonzagas; and since there was a similar Knight-and-Lady fresco sequence, with castles on hills, it might have been Piero Maria Rossi, whose mother (or wife?) was from Cremona (as I discussed in the post just referred to).

At the same time the Knight in the card could also be, in a new interpretation of an old design, Francesco Sforza rescuing Piccinino from a tight spot. I love the word "polysemous." Then the card could be either 1441-1442, for Francesco's wedding, or post-1450. Sforza would have been able to display the viper on his banner either time, if that's what's there. The incident that Trionfi refers to, where Piccinino sneaks out of his predicament in a sack, puts him in a rather ridiculous light. For that reason, 1441 would not have been the wisest time for Filippo to commission such a card. Piccinino might have been offended and left Filippo's service at his first opportunity. Of course that's just what Piccinino did, and Filippo was a pretty insensitive guy, so it's possible. Post-1450, Piccinino and Sforza were rivals, and the Piccinino family in Lombardy would have preferred their man to be in charge rather than Sforza. So as anti-Piccinino propaganda, Piccinino ingloriously in the bottom of the boat, and Sforza to the rescue, makes good sense for Francesco to remind people of in a card whose theme is Glory. Anyone with the name Piccinino continued to be a source of humor. As late as 1471, Galeazzo instructed that that Alesseio Piccinino "be depicted such that a stag has thrown him from his horse, and he is raising his legs to the sky in as attractive a manner as possible." Such, Lubkin notes, was Galeazzo's "perverse humor" (A Renaissance Court, p. 107, in Google Books).

Battle TENNO/CASTEL ROMANO – 1439 november 9
Veneziani: 3000 cavalli, 1000 fanti. La battaglia è decisa dall’intervento dei bresciani che mettono i viscontei in fuga. I milanesi subiscono la perdita di 300 uomini (contro 60 di parte veneziana) e la cattura di 100 uomini d’arme, molti fanti e cernite (nel complesso 5000 uomini).

----
Between this time Piccinino fooled Sforza and took Verona - for a short time only. When Sforza heard of it, he didn't believe it first. It did need various messengers to convince him.
----

BATTAGLIA DI PORTA SAN FELICE/VERONA – 1439 november 17
Recupero di Verona da parte delle truppe della Serenissima. Fra i viscontei sono uccisi 300 cavalli e 1000 fanti gonzagheschi; molti sono pure gli annegati. I veneziani fanno 2000 prigionieri.



http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source= ... oramio.all

In this castle Piccinino was trapped with few men only after the lost battle and waited for the attack on the next day. Piccinino was a small man. A big German took him in a sack and walked with him to the lake, where they found a small boat and crossed the lake. He gathered his military forces and took Verona by surprise.

This story became probably the most told anecdote of the war, which was finished with the wedding of Francesco Sforza and Bianca Maria Visconti.

Incomplete source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-AIJgK ... na&f=false

Thanks Huck and Mike. Well...

Can you show me anything definitely of Bonifacio's that is similar?

Sorry, i dont understand the cuestion. Do you think the Lancilloto are not painted by Bonifacio Bembo? why?

You can find where in the thread

Perfect! Thanks Mike, I need it in this charming labyrinth, lol!

I don't understand why there would be two people in the ferryboat.

I don't understand yet. They, probably, are two monks, but i am not sure in a case (who sits with a book in hand). We need know more about the "Carretta".

I don't see why, so far, your Visconti theory excludes my Grail theory.

Yes, you're right. Polysemic word is very nice. It could be that Visconti see "Grial" in Cusago . But, then, we need know more about Filippo Maria. He like the Arthurian cycle? I dont know.

Yes, the boat can make the story of Piccinino, thanks Huck. Why not? Visconti had a very sophisticated sense of humor and was a very complex mind.

But we also need know what means Cusago for him.

"It's not easy being a Visconti" (Huck says.) < This is very important understand well.

In Milan, he can not feel safe. But in Cusago find her oasis:

Eresse in quello che era stato il luogo fortificato degli antenati la rocca di Cusago, a sette miglia dalla cità, notevolmente bella cosí tra i boschi e i disseminati rifugi della selvaggina: lì, caciando, trova sollievo dalle preoccupazioni.

(Decembrio).

mmfilesi wrote: I don't understand yet. They, probably, are two monks, but i am not sure in a case (who sits with a book in hand). We need know more about the "Carretta".

barco.jpg

Possibly Piccinino and his helper disguised as monks ... and this part of the story became lost

Yes, the boat can make the story of Piccinino, thanks Huck. Why not? Visconti had a very sophisticated sense of humor and was a very complex mind.


But we also need know what means Cusago for him.

If one assumes the production as "of 1441 (wedding)" the presence of a recent military anecdote on a "Fame card" is completely logical.

Sforza versus Piccinino was the dominant fight during the war. Sforza and Piccinino are recorded to have had a peaceful talking before the wedding.
In the general calculation of the time (and in a letter, which Visconti wrote to Sforza) it's noted, that Sforza would get Bianca Maria, cause Piccinino attempted to get higher payment from Visconti than Visconti was willing to give. So finishing the war was a matter between 3 men: Visconti - Sforza - Piccinino.

Visconti had made the experience in his youth, that strong condottieri in one's own service might cost the ducal throne. So he took always the way, that nobody in his service could become too strong. He discarded Carmagnola, who had been of great help for him. He tricked Sforza variously. Piccinino was removed back to is position, when he had Sforza in a bad trap in summer 1441.

Since ca. 1421 Filippo Maria is said to have avoided public appearances. Also it's said that he avoided to appear on paintings, although some pictures are known. He had difficulties to walk already, when he was younger, and near the end of his life it was worse and additionally he became blind.

He traveled on channels, likely cause riding on horse was too difficult. Also he was careful to keep up some self protection all the time to some paranoid degree ... changing rooms during the night, requesting his astrologers, making it difficult to determine, when and where he would be in near future, likely controlling each of his meals for hidden poison. Similar to the American president nowadays ... ... He was successful with his method, he died in bed and not by the hands of hired murderers as many of his relatives.

It's difficult to imagine, that he wished to appear on a horse in the playing card game dedicated to the wedding of his daughter. He didn't attend the wedding ... likely it was considered to be too dangerous.

A preference for Cusago might mean, that Cusago was easily reachable by channel - and good protected against surprising attacks.

I can't identify the channel, but it might be lost nowadays.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.44372 ... outube.all

OK. I understand now best. Thanks Huck.

Possibly Piccinino and his helper disguised as monks ... and this part of the story became lost

Ok. We need to find this information. I will pray to Saint Google.

I can't identify the channel,

Its lost. One part in:

http://www.pbase.com/ugpini/il_naviglio ... a_gaggiano

ll the time to some paranoid degree

Lol, sure. But if I am a Visconti and I want survive, I need become a paraonid

The legends said, has not been fully confirmed, that there was an underground road between the Visconti's Castle in Cusago and the church of Santa Maria Rossa (the number 5 in my scheme). Thus, Filippo Maria could escape if attacked in Cusago .... Legends.

Wiki:

È nota l'esistenza nel Castello di un ingresso ad un antico tunnel sotterraneo. Il tunnel collegherebbe il Castello (in direzione Milano) alla chiesa di Santa Maria Rossa e da qui proseguirebbe verso Baggio e quindi Milano (si conoscevano alcuni ingressi presenti a Baggio) e dall'altro, in direzione Pavia, intersecherebbe un'altra rete di tunnel che corre fino alla Certosa di Pavia, quindi con una lunghezza di parecchi Km. Si ritiene che la fitta rete sotterranea sia molto estesa e che la via maestra correrebbe parallelamente al naviglio pavese. Un ingresso del tunnel, murato intorno alla metà degli anni 60, si trova proprio sotto al Castello (sul lato dx guardando frontalmente l'edificio). Il Tunnel, avrebbe una larghezza di circa 4/5 metri, un'altezza intorno ai 2.5 metri e risulterebbe costruito con una volta a mattoni. Una struttura tale da consentire il passaggio delle carrozze a cavallo, quindi con una probabile funzione di via di fuga dei signori di Milano.

See too:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cascinevercel ... Baggio.pdf (fol. 320).

Questo fantomatico e misterioso passaggio sotterraneo sarebbe servito in un lontano passato a chissà quali intrighi e addirittura, durante la guerra partigiana, come deposito di munizioni e via di fuga per i partigiani che operavano in zona. I racconti in tal senso, infarciti anche di episodi e di riferimenti accattivanti, sono numerosi.
Molte persone sostengono addirittura di averlo percorso per alcune centinaia di metri prima di imbattersi nell’inevitabile crollo della volta che ne ostruiva il passaggio. Alcuni sostengono addirittura che vi potesse anche passare un cavaliere in sella al destriero. Il condizionale è assolutamente d’obbligo poiché un cunicolo vero e proprio non è stato mai rinvenuto; nel Monastero c’erano, in effetti, antri bui, cantine e lunghi corridoi sotterranei, ma terminavano al muro di cinta del complesso.

It's difficult to imagine, that he wished to appear on a horse in the playing card game dedicated to the wedding of his daughter. He didn't attend the wedding ... likely it was considered to be too dangerous.

Well... I think it's just the opposite. It is the small world of Filippo Maria, a man who has traveled very little. When a great man is represented in a statue or a painting, not represents how he is in reality, but how he wanted to be. I can imagine Filippo said to his daughter, and his dangerous husband, he is a great knight.

mmfilesi wrote: Well... I think it's just the opposite. It is the small world of Filippo Maria, a man who has traveled very little. When a great man is represented in a statue or a painting, not represents how he is in reality, but how he wanted to be. I can imagine Filippo said to his daughter, and his dangerous husband, he is a great knight.

... .-) ... you're in danger to overestimate the value of a few playing cards ...

The prices around 1423 - 1425 were fantastical high ... 1500 ducats in the Michelino deck case and 40 ducats for an d'Este deck in 1423 ... the 1500 ducats - if true - possibly were a "thank you" for Martiano da Tortona for a lifelong work or somehow connected to another purpose, possibly a school project of Martiano.
The usual price at the d'Este court 1442 - 1463 for a gilded deck were 10-12 Lira Marchesana, maybe something like 4 ducats. There were a lot of things, which were more expensive.

... .-) ... if Filippo Maria would have known, that he nowadays is better known for his Trionfi cards than for all his considerable other works, he likely would have cared to spend some more money ... .-)

I don't think, that Filippo Maria as an elder man would have seen as especially honorable, if others perceived him as a "knight".

... .-) ... if Filippo Maria would have known, that he nowadays is better known for his Trionfi cards than for all his considerable other works, he likely would have cared to spend some more money ... .-)

Lol.

.....

I searched how Picinino escaped . In general, there are two versions:

a) Put in a bag

b) Put in a bag, pretending that it had the Black Death

For example

http://www.digistyle.it/public/ecomuseo ... _tenno.pdf

Questo personaggio è legato al castello di Tenno da un racconto che ebbe vasta eco e che
viene riportato da Niccolò Machiavelli nelle “Istorie fiorentine” (1525): in pratica il Piccinino si
era rifugiato nel castello assediato dai soldati del Gattamelata. Nella notte elabora uno
stratagemma per rompere l’accerchiamento e cioè si fece portare in un sacco da un suo
servitore molto robusto attraverso le linee nemiche che erano abbastanza rilassate data la
vittoria del giorno prima. Del fatto esiste anche un’altra versione, e cioè che il Piccinino si sia
fatto mettere nel sacco e, preceduto dal suono di un campanello che stava ad indicare
l’avvicinamento di un appestato, abbia attraversato con successo il campo nemico.

c) Well... Sorry friend, but i dont see a bag. Neither see a soldiers to conquer a castle or a sign of war. I see a happy place, where the man fishing or hunting (above appear a rabbit or similar).

mmfilesi wrote:
c) Well... Sorry friend, but i dont see a bag. Neither see a soldiers to conquer a castle or a sign of war. I see a happy place, where the man fishing or hunting (above appear a rabbit or similar).

They escaped with a boat. First the German went with a sack over the battle-field, pretending to gather something, as others also did ... so I do know the story.
There are 100 km between Tenno and Verona and mountains. They surely didn't walk the distance.
The painter didn't intend to paint a realistic situation, but an abstract of the story.

... .-) ... anyway, it isn't really important.

Lol! I know... Its only a mental pastime. I don't know how to say in English, "acertijo" (riddle?)

Filippo Maria and the horses :