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Tarot History Forum - 600 years of history in 78 cards

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

111
I would say, it's a straight development of the 3x7-scheme ...

1-5 the common order - youth
6 Decision for marriage (Love)
7 Triumphal bride journey (presenting her Chastity)

8-12 Life and its dangers
13 Death
14 Fame (survives Death) ... lower Angel

15-19 Dangers and facts of after life
20 Time ends (Judgment) ... higher Angel
21 Eternity

Well, there the general doubt, that the Trionfi cards had already 22 trumps at the beginning. But somhow it's logial, that the Trionfi series developed from the Petrarca trumps.

Inside the experimental development somebody mght have tried to return to the begin by using now 22 trumps.

Not all Temperance cards had wings. Not all Temperance cards had Nr. 14. Actually it appears in the Western (Milanese) development, but the Temperance of PMB hadn't wings.

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We had this theme of the "winged Temperance" earlier ...

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search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... 1&start=10

I personally think, that Folengo in his Triperuno uses the Tarochi as a meta scheme of the text. He doesn't number his chapters himself (as it seems), but the probable chapter 13 has the death of a weasle and the probable chapter 14 has the funeral (Fame). Some of his many funny details seem to remember different Tarocchi sequence changes, and he makes his sharp remarks (so Justice - Ferrara - had fallen from top).

Naturally it's difficult to interpret Folengo.

***************

In the earlier discussion to "winged Temperance" it looked, as if this would be earlier a Venetian speciality.

This would make logic, as Venice was married to the water and tothe sea, and Temperance is the virtue, which connects to water. If the wings had an increasing function (giving a virtue a higher value than the other not winged virttues in a presentation), then it would be understandable, why Venice had a winged Temperance. A lot of ships in the past had a big wooden figure at their front, often female. Perhaps this was in Venice connected to Temperance.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

112
Sorry for the delay. I've been away for a few days. As I was about to post, I see that Huck posted something new. I will look at it tomorrow. It looks pretty much in line with what I am saying.

Steve: I think "far la luna" is an idiom meaning "lunatic". At least that's what it says at https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/view/ ... nteisit/32.

Also, it seems to me that "né s’è" means "nor if there is". That's the way Maronney translates it, in her new draft translation Feb 2014, on the website Huck linked to, http://www.folengo.com/Chaos%20with%20E ... 202014.pdf
Love (under whose Empire many endeavors go
lacking Time, dissipated by Fortune) saw Death on
the Chariot--horrendous and brown--turning
among so many people taken in the World.*

“By what Justice” said [Love], “did neither a Pope,
nor (if there is one) a Papesse, ever submit to you?”
[Death] answered, “He who with the Sun made the
Moon took their defense against my powers.”

“What kind of fool are you? That Fire,” said Love,
“which appears now Angel now Demon, others know
how to temper under my Star.

You are Empress to the bodies, but even though you
suspend a heart, you don't kill; it is a name only of
high fame [that] keeps you a Magician.”
On the other hand, Andrea (http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng) understands the speakers differently, as first Death and then Love. That also seems to work. In that case, Death understands the Pope and Popess (if there is one) as resisting Love, meaning carnal love. Love replies that God gives them defense against his power. But it is foolish to think that there is only one kind of love: the fire, meaning the fire of Love, appears both as Angel and as Devil.

It is interesting that here the Star would seem to be Venus.

I don't see how you can put "Faith" as a translation of "Papesse", Steve. The phrase "s'e" )"If ever there is one)" makes it plain that a female Pope is what is meant, since of course Faith, or the Faith, certainly exists.

I also like very much Moroney's translation of "Bagatella" as "Magician", now that I understand how Folengo uses the term in Baldo. Tarotpedia has "trifle"; Andrea and I put "small magician", thinking that "Bagatino" was a kind of dimunitive, given that it was the name of a small coin. But just "Magician" makes more sense here (in the sense of having power over people), now that I see the rest of the sentence structure as Moronney renders it: it is especially clear that "tienti" means "keeps you" and not "you remain".

SteveM writes,
Re: Hanged Man as 'shame painting' -- in Petrarch 'fear of shame' is part of Chastity's train (as well as desire for honour - temperance as Fama?)

Bella Accoglienza, Accorgimento fore,
Cortesia intorno intorno e Puritate,
Timor d'infamia e Desio sol d'onore,

Gracious Geniality and Forsight at her side,
Courtesy and Purity all around,
Fear of shame and Desire for only honour,

re: 'Time' -- in Petrarch's poem itself (rather than illustrations thereto) the symbol for Time is the Sun -- so if we consider the Sun trump (or Star, Moon & Sun) as the symbol(s) for the Triumph of Time, then there is room for the 'old man' to reflect another nuance.

The Poet as an Old Man, reflecting upon Time as symbolized by the endless wheel of the Sun, and who comes to see himself as 'in a mirror', maybe taken as a symbol of 'foresight/prudence', and thus with with the virtues (and the traitor as 'the fear of shame') belongs with the Triumph of Chastity, as in the first of the three lines above.
On "Time" as the Sun rather than the Old Man. Yes, that is what I suspect, too, as I suggested in my last post. That reference to Petrarch on the Triumph of Time is excellent. Then the Old Man is Time in a different sense, the passage of time during one's life, through which one gets wisdom/prudence. The triumph of Time is then something else, represented by the Sun (and maybe the other celestial bodies as an afterthought).

It seems to me that the Hanged Man, as later in the PMB sequence but still in the second section, represents the overcoming of shame (what is shameful is perhaps being taken in by the Wheel). Muzio's working for the anti-Pope is something shameful, and the anti-Pope deserves betrayal, despite the threat of a "shame painting". Betrayal and shame are different; betrayal is not necessarily shameful: there is also honor in the overcoming of shame by betraying a shameful person.

Chastity as honor and glory is good, I think.. It something that cannot be defeated by Death. Death only defeats Laura's body, not her Fama. That explains Fama as the triumph of Temperentia (= the eternal part of Chastity) over Death.

I guess I should post what I've written about that issue (earlier in the week, but I didn't post it). It comes next:

Next is Death, Dummett says (p. 422f)
Il trionfo XIII, la Morte, non richiede spiegazioni. Pur dif- [end of 422] ferendo nei dettagli, tutte le versioni mostrano la morte come uno scheletro, in piedi o a cavallo, nell’atto di falciare uomini e donne, e, in particolare, papi e re, una rappresentazione quindi del tutto convenzionale.

(Triumph XIII, Death, requires no explanation. Although dif- [end of 422] ifering in details, all versions show death as a skeleton, standing or on horseback, in the act of mowing men and women, and, in particular, popes and kings, then a totally conventional depiction.)
.
However I think that the Tarot de Marseille introduces something new when it portrays the heads of two of the figures, male and female, coming out of the ground with their eyes open. They are the new birth, not physical but of the soul or spirit, symbolized by the heads.

I think it is important that the early designers, as indicated by the commonalities of the A, B, and C orders that Dummett brings out, perceived this card as grouped with the later cards of the sequence and not the earlier ones. It is the beginning of the afterlife.

There is really no discontinuity between this card and the ones before it, the Wheel and the Hanged Man. I suspect that in an earlier version of the sequence, the Petrarchan triumphs (which prima facie doesn't include the Hanged Man) simply continued to the end, without any change of story, and the cards from Devil through the Celestials were inserted later.

There is a sharp contrast between what I call the Petrarchan part of the sequence--Love, Chariot, Time (interpreted not as after death), Death, Angel and World, plus the virtues--and those not part of it. Those not part of it are invariably in the same order (except for the Popess, which has a special explanation) in all the orders, while the Petrarchan part is in all sorts of arrangements. Since the Hanged Man is almost always right before Death, I suspect that it is a late addition, too. This suggests to me that the Petrarchan part was earlier, before the deck was standardized.

Later, with Alciato and the deck reflected in Vieville, there might have been an attempt to restore the C order to a precise Petrarchan interpretation, when the 14th card in the C order got the alternative name "Fama". In Petrarch Fame comes after Death and before Time. In that case, the celestials would have represented Time: the Stars (of the Zodiac) show the year and the month, the Moon by its phases shows the weeks, and the Sun shows the day and even, given the sundial, the hour (as well as the season, through the equinoxes and solstices). That is my answer to the riddle of why "Fama" started appearing in some versions of the C order in the 14th card.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

113
mikeh wrote: Also, it seems to me that "né s’è" means "nor if there is". That's the way Maronney translates it, in her new draft translation Feb 2014, on the website Huck linked to...

On the other hand, Andrea (http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng) understands the speakers differently, as first Death and then Love. That also seems to work. In that case, Death understands the Pope and Popess (if there is one) as resisting Love, meaning carnal love. Love replies that God gives them defense against his power.

I don't see how you can put "Faith" as a translation of "Papesse", Steve. The phrase "s'e" )"If ever there is one)" makes it plain that a female Pope is what is meant, since of course Faith, or the Faith, certainly exists.
Questioning the existence of a popesse is not the same as questioning the existence of what she represents in this case. I tend to read it as Marco as Death addressing Love -- but it is not very clear either way.

If the pope and the popesse (if there is one) do not succumb to love, then they must represent in this instance something that triumphs over (carnal) love, e.g., virtue/chastity. If on the other hand the pope and popesse (if there is one) do not succumb to death, then I take them to represent something that Triumphs over Death, e.g., Faith in Christ, that brings eternal life. Questioning the existence of the Popesse does not negate either Chastity or Faith, she is taken (whether she exists in reality or not) as representing with the pope either Chastity or Faith, depending on the speaker. I tend to read it as love/chastity, as that would be more usual I think than a Pope triumphing over death (in dance of death like motifs for example - we all succumb to death, the holy and the secular, high and low, the fools and the wise). Also Love was associated with the Magician (e.g., 'Why is Love called a Magician?' asked Ficino). However, I think it is ambiguous inthe original, and to state 'death' or 'love' as speaker would be just a translator interposing their understanding of what is ambiguous in the original - and to translate is to betray, as the old saying goes.
Last edited by SteveM on 20 Jul 2014, 13:15, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

114
mikeh wrote:In that case, the celestials would have represented Time: the Stars (of the Zodiac) show the year and the month, the Moon by its phases shows the weeks, and the Sun shows the day and even, given the sundial, the hour (as well as the season, through the equinoxes and solstices).
As an astrologer I would say the stars represent the (hours and) days (the angles of the horoscope pass through the degrees of the zodiac over the cycle of a day -- thus one of the things one has to do to construct a horoscope is to convert local time to star time -- or 'sidereal time'), the moon represents the (weeks and) months (the length of time for the moon to pass through the degrees of the zodiac), and the sun represents the (seasons and) years (the length of time the sun takes to pass through the degrees of the zodiac) -- thus the tarot sequence of lights (Star, Moon, Sun) follows measures of time in their order of progressive length (days, months, years) according to the common measures of astrology/astronomy.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

115
mikeh wrote: It seems to me that the Hanged Man, as later in the PMB sequence but still in the second section, represents the overcoming of shame (what is shameful is perhaps being taken in by the Wheel).
The Hanged Man it seems to me is an exemplar of Shame illustrated by a shameful death, an exemplar of that to be feared and avoided. It is the fear of Shame that is a spur to overcome it, to do the right/honourable thing. Shame/Fame is a common pairing of machismo, militaristis, honour bound cultures. The Fear of Shame as a spur to honour should be greater than the fear of death, it is not wrong for the condotierre to fear death, but his fear of the shame of being thought of as a coward, in this life or as his reputation/good name following his death, should spur him on to overcome it. It is as representing the fear of shame, as a spur to virtue and desired for glory, that places it in the train of Chastity. So yes I agree, it represent the overcoming of shame, in as much as it is the fear of shame (and the desire for glory/a good name, reputation, fama) by which one overcomes it.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

116
mikeh wrote:
(Triumph XIII, Death, requires no explanation. Although dif- [end of 422] ifering in details, all versions show death as a skeleton, standing or on horseback, in the act of mowing men and women, and, in particular, popes and kings, then a totally conventional depiction.)
.

However I think that the Tarot de Marseille introduces something new when it portrays the heads of two of the figures, male and female, coming out of the ground with their eyes open. They are the new birth, not physical but of the soul or spirit, symbolized by the heads.
This is probably the most Tarot de Marseille like death I've seen, woodcut illustration to 'Canta della e morte e piede' song of death on foot, Florence c.1513:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qOIR ... &q&f=false

Attachment:
Picture 4.png

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

117
Steve:.Your interpretation of the celestials in relation to units of time makes more sense than mine, as we head toward the end of time and Eternity. It strikes me that the sequence could have been interpreted both ways; and yours makes more sense from a more informed point of view.

Huck: Yes, wings are a Venetian specialty. In the depiction you showed from Venice, all the virtues have wings. There needs to be a principle for singling out just one. That is how, to the extent that Ferrara and Venice influenced tarot in Lyons, we have an explanation for Justice with wings. It gets wings in Venice and Ferrara from being on the upper side of death and so an angel. Then in the Lyons-influenced Vieville (http://www.tarot-history.com/Jacques-Vi ... ce-web.jpg), Justice has wings, too, even though it is no longer on the far side of Death, due to copying that design.

You may be right as to the structure of Caos; but it needs more working out, not just a few chapters.

SteveM wrote:
Questioning the existence of a popesse is not the same as questioning the existence of what she represents in this case.
I don't understand your point. Folengo says "Popess (if there is one)". He does not say, mean, or imply "the Faith (if there is one)". Ergo the the Popess does not symbolize the Faith. It is simply a female Pope. Here is a parallel example. Someone says "x may or may not exist" while holding and looking at an apple and saying "this apple exists". Could x represent that apple? I don't see how. Similarly, Folengo says that the Popess is something that may or may not exist. We can suppose that if asked he would assert that the Catholic Faith exists. If so, the Popess does not represent the Catholic Faith.

A false analogy: I question whether a certain pope existed. I do not question the existence of the Catholic Faith. It does not follow that I am questioning whether that Pope represented the Catholic Faith. This is a false analogy because a particular Pope does not represent the Catholic Faith in the way that a symbol represents that for which the symbol stands. In a general sense, Popes represent the Catholic Faith. So do priests. But that does not mean that when I see a picture of a Pope, i can say, that represents the Catholic Faith, and when I see a picture of a priest, that does, too.

SteveM wrote,
The Hanged Man it seems to me is an exemplar of Shame illustrated by a shameful death, an exemplar of that to be feared and avoided. It is the fear of Shame that is a spur to overcome it, to do the right/honourable thing. Shame/Fame is a common pairing of machismo, militaristis, honour bound cultures. The Fear of Shame as a spur to honour should be greater than the fear of death, it is not wrong for the condotierre to fear death, but his fear of the shame of being thought of as a coward, in this life or as his reputation/good name following his death, should spur him on to overcome it. It is as representing the fear of shame, as a spur to virtue and desired for glory, that places it in the train of Chastity. So yes I agree, it represent the overcoming of shame, in as much as it is the fear of shame (and the desire for glory/a good name, reputation, fama) by which one overcomes it.
I agree with you up to a point. But I do not think that this card is about a machismo desire to avoid having one's name and reputation ruined simpliciter; if the loss of reputation is based on misunderstanding, or one has the shame of being thought a coward when one is not in fact a coward. It is about avoiding or overcoming shame due to doing the wrong thing, or failing to do the right thing, regardless of what people may think. It is not about avoiding a shame painting or a death in that position, because Muzio Attendola has virtue and honor for doing what he did regardless of the shame painting. The shame painting, and the card, serve to remind us not to do anything shameful, because if one does, not only will will we have to face God and our conscience, but also our family, friends, and nation. At the same time it was thought important, by Italian Renaissance writers, to emphasize rising above the shame-based culture. People do reckless, foolish things in the name of not being thought a coward. There is the passage in Shakespeare:
Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash...
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.
It is said by Iago to Othello for the ultimate purpose (although not the immediate purpose) of goading him into doing rash deeds for the sake of his honor. The story was originally Italian.

I am going to proceed on to Devil and Tower. Here is Dummett on the Devil: He has just said that Death presents no special problems.
Lo stesso dicasi per il Diavolo. Il modo di ritrarre il soggetto è assai vario, ma, nella maggior parte dei casi, il disegno mostra soltanto la figura del diavolo in rappresentazioni più o meno convenzionali. La carta del Tarocco di Marsiglia, del Tarocco di Besangon e degli altri modelli derivati, è insolita in quanto raffigura due diavoletti in aggiunta al soggetto principale; non è chiaro, almeno per me, perché siano incatenati al ceppo su cui il diavolo sta ritto.

(The same applies to the Devil. The way of portraying the subject is varied, but, in most cases, the design shows the figure of the devil in only more or less conventional depictions. The card of the Tarot of the Tarot of Marseille, Tarot of Besancon and other models derived from it is unusual in that it depicts two little devils in addition to the main subject; it is not clear, at least to me, why they are chained to the stump on which the devil is standing.
Dummett at least recognizes that the Tarot de Marseille adds something new, the two devils bound to the "stump" on which the Devil stands. This seems to me an extension of the Cary Sheet image of the souls in the sack on the Devil's back. It is probably a result of a medieval representation of these souls as tied to the devil, as seen, for example, in a column in France that had been posted by Fauvulus at viewtopic.php?f=14&t=278&hilit=column&start=30#p3890 that Marco recently drew to my attention. The Devil is standing on a pedestal, as another church, I presume French, shows: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=278&hilit=column&start=40#p3905).

The real mystery about this card, it seems to me, is why it follows immediately upon either Death or Temperance/Fama. Dummett refuses to deal with this question, claiming that it is unknown what the "original order" was; but in every order it has the same place, allowing only for the variation in the position of Temperance. The early accounts in the Discourses by Piscina and Anonymous very much concerned themselves with this question, and give different answers. Piscina makes it a matter of what lies between the earth and the celestial bodies. I will start with his discussion of Temperance (the Italian is at http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_5):
Then Temperance comes: a most beautiful virtue that moderates us in the pleasures of the body, according to the law, and that can [19] here be interpreted as any other virtue, that does not fear the strikes of Death, nor the inconstance of Fortune: on the contrary, virtues make men immortal, according to the opinion of the Poet^, they take the man out of the grave and preserve him for a long and immortal life. Since the Author thought to have discussed enough images and examples of mortal things, he moves to place figures of more worthy things, that is to say, celestial. But since Nature does not allow changes that are too quick, nor that one moves from one extreme to the other without the due mean, before ascending to celestial things as the extreme end of earthly things he places examples of Demons: because, as Melito said answering Socrates' question, they are sons of the Gods but are neither earthly nor celestial. It has been the opinion of many, in particular the Platonists, that the Demons are Spirits that are in the air & that they are somehow in the middle between Gods and men.
Melito was the Athenian state's prosecutor against Socrates in Plato's Apology. Piscina seems to be using Temperance to represent all the virtues, the possession of which overcomes Death. But between the extremes of mortality and immortality is a mean, namely, a part in between. I think he is referring to the medieval cosmograph, with its successive circles of earth, water, air, and fire. He only applies it to the last two. Yet it seems to me that Death, which triumphs over the body, is at one extreme, earth. Then Temperance has the two pitchers, with water between them. Then comes air, where the demons are. Fire of course is next. The only difficulty will be with the Star, which seems out of place whether representing a planet or something in the Fixed Stars, as the next circle in the cosmograph after Fire is the Moon. There are various ways of accounting for this discrepancy, which I will get to in another post. With the cosmograph came a doctrine of the soul's ascent to the Empyrian, which can be contemplated also in this life through meditation. The idea, I think, is that the virtuous soul is assailed on all sides by demons. They lie in wait for the soul ready to capture it and drag it to hell, even if it had some good works. It was thought necessary to pray for the souls of the dead for a certain period after death, as an aid to its passage. Then if it manages to elude the demons, there is also the realm of Fire to contend with. Dante described this journey in his Divine Comedy. He put the demons in Hell, which is where they drag souls to, then the purifying fire is in Purgatory. But they were represented in the air often enough, for example in a famous 14th century "Triumph of Death" (the title came later) in Pisa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buona ... co_001.jpg), in which, on the upper right, winged demons and angels fight each other for the possession of souls.

Another interpretation of why the Devil comes next is that of Anonymous:
After these, the Hunchback, the Traitor, Death and the Devil follow. The Hunchback, who is none other than Time, demonstrates that all those things are vain and transitory. Therefore loving and desiring them so intensely, thinking of nothing else, is the greatest foolishness, because in a short time Old Age comes together with all its miseries; then people begin to understand the deceptions of the murderous World, which are put before their eyes by the traitor. But since they have gotten so used to their bad habits, it is difficult to get free of them; they do not depart from their usual habits. It is difficult to get free of them; they do not depart from their usual errors. Suddenly Death comes, in the horror of which the Devil, who is the cause of all this, takes them away in fright and despair. This is the miserable end of human actions, speaking of those who are completely immersed in the vain and lascivious delights that the World promises and can give; they follow foolishness as their guide, without regard to their end and to God, upon whom the greatest good and all perfect and permanent happiness depend.
Here the idea is that unvirtuous souls, who sacrifice virtue to strive after the things of this world, are in the clutches of the Devil after death. A problem with this interpretation, as a description of the soul's journey after death, is that Hell is a final destination, once there one cannot ascend higher. So there is a sharp break between this card and the one following. The narrator is asking one to consider another ending. There are two alternative endings to the story, not one narrative. If there are two endings, but only one sequence of triumphs, then one has to be done after the other, with a break in between. Dummett's examination of the orders did not have a break at this point: every order does the sequence from Death through Sun in exactly the same way, as though this was all one group. If there is a break here, with two endings, it is one that the designers of all three orders must have understood as such. as a series of two endings; or else this part of the sequence came at a later time than the rest, and two merely copied the precise order of the third.

Anonymous accomplishes the leap from Devil to the Heavens (he has no Fire, just "cieli") through what I think is an act of contemplation. it is by contemplating the heavens that we come to see the power of God. (Here I have altered Caldwell, Depaulis, and Ponzi's sentence structure slightly, to conform with that of the original, even though it is awkward in English, and changed one preposition.)
His contemplation is wisely presented by the Author in the following seven figures by means of his marvelous and beautiful works, so that knowing him, we love him. So that, by [not for] his infinite goodness and mercy, he delivers us from the Devil at the end of our lives, making us co-heirs with him of the true glory and the happiness of Heaven. Therefore we rise with our eyes and intellects to the Heavens, the Star, the Moon, and the Sun, the supernatural works of God, the World [meaning "Cosmos"], so in the fixed stars as in the moving Planets, of which each depends on its own intelligence which is the Angel, who governs and moves them in accordance with the first Mover, who is the great and immortal God, represented by Justice. because at Judgment Day he will be a most righteous and severe Judge, repaying everyone according to their deeds.
So from contemplating the Devil, our eyes rise upwards to the Heavens, seeing there God's works, the planets and fixed stars of the Cosmos (which is a better translation of "Mondo" into English than "World"), each acting in conformity with the will of the Creator, thus reminding us of that same Creator at Judgment Day.

In Piscina's interpretation, however, it is all one sequence. From a contemplation of the demons in the air, we are led upwards to higher and better things. The course is like the "imitatio Christi", in which, just as Christ descended into Hell, so do those in imitation of him. confronting demons, to their greater glory.

Because of the close connection, visually and verbally, between Devil and the next card, Fire or Lightning, in its early cards and titles, I will deal with it in this post. Dummett says:
Fra tutti i trionfi la Torre non ha soltanto il maggior numero di nomi alternativi, ma anche la più grande varietà di illustrazioni. Esse possono essere divise in due classi. Sulla carta delle Minchiate vediamo un diavolo che emerge dalla bocca dell’inferno per trascinarvi dentro una donna. La carta di Catelin Geoffroy mostra una scena confusa e piena di fumo e con un edificio sullo sfondo; in primo piano v’è un diavolo che trascina via una donna con un braccio levato al cielo in segno di disperazione o di preghiera. Sul trionfo XVI del mazzo parigino anonimo, chiamato ‘la Fovdre' un diavolo esce dalla bocca dell’ìnfemo mentre una figura si accuccia al suolo davanti a lui. Queste tre carte formano la prima delle due classi: su tutte c’è un diavolo e il disegno si presta a nomi come ‘la Casa del Diavolo’ o l'Infemo’ — nome questo usato da Lollio e da Imperiali. La seconda classe è più numerosa e si adatta a nomi come ‘la Saetta’, ‘il Fuoco’ e ‘la Foudre’ (‘il Fulmine’). Nel mazzo di Viéville e nei mazzi del Tarocco belga in genere, vediamo un fulmine che colpisce un albero; non si scorgono edifici. In tutte le altre versioni c’è una torre o un altro edifìcio; in tutte, tranne la siciliana, l’edifìcio è in fiamme e di solito colpito da un fulmine. Nell’unica versione dipinta a mano pervenutaci, quella del gruppo ‘Carlo VI’, non ci sono figure umane; vi compare un grande edificio in rovina con la parte superiore in fiamme, ma senza fulmine. La versione sul foglio Rosenwald assomiglia molto al disegno ‘Carlo VI’, sebbene semplificato; ancora una volta non ci sono figure, ma un grande sole nell’angolo superiore sinistro della carta sprigiona raggi che, apparentemente, appiccano fuoco all’edificio. Il disegno [end of 423] bolognese, quale appare nel foglio della collezione Rothschild e in mazzi successivi, è simile, salvo l’aggiunta di due figure a terra. Nel ‘mazzo Budapest’ non ci sono figure, ma un’alta torre è incendiata dai raggi dì un sole. La carta del foglio Cary, chiara antenata del disegno del Tarocco di Marsiglia, non è intatta; mostra una torre cilindrica la cui sommità appare illesa e che, per quanto si può vedere, non è in fiamme, ma potrebbe essere colpita da un fulmine dal lato sinistro, che è mancante. Il Tarocco di Marsiglia mostra una torre colpita dal fulmine, con la cima che si sgretola e due figure che precipitano.

Per parecchie ragioni sarebbe allettante supporre che la prima classe di disegni e il nome ‘la Casa del Diavolo’ rappresentino il significato originario della carta. Essa lascia infatti trasparire un’idea più precisa di quella espressa dai disegni di un edificio in fiamme e da nomi come ‘il Fuoco’. Inoltre, questo spiegherebbe perché la carta è invariabilmente collocata in posizione immediatamente superiore al Diavolo; presumibilmente lo strano nome lla Maison Dieu’ deriva da un fraintendimento del nome ‘la Casa del Diavolo’. Tuttavia, le prove contraddicono questa teoria. Il nome fornito nella fonte più antica, il sermone 'De Ludo', è «la Sagitta»; i disegni che mostrano un diavolo sono più rari e posteriori a quelli che mostrano un edificio in rovina. Inoltre, i disegni della prima classe sembrano chiaramente derivati da quelli della seconda. Sulla carta delle Minchiate il diavolo emerge da un edificio merlato e le fiamme lo colpiscono dall’angolo superiore della carta. È solo nelle due versioni francesi — la carta di Geoffroy e quella del mazzo parigino anonimo — che le fiamme provengono dalla bocca dell'infemo e solo nella più tarda, nel mazzo anonimo, che è scomparsa ogni traccia di edificio. Conviene piuttosto notare che in tutti i disegni della seconda classe, compresa la carta siciliana e con la sola eccezione del Tarocco di Marsiglia, la porta è un tratto di particolare rilievo nell’edificio (la carta sul foglio Cary è troppo frammentaria per poter decìdere). Potremmo pertanto ricostruire una linea di sviluppo nel modo seguente: un edifìcio in fiamme; un edificio in fiamme con figure che precipitano; un edifìcio in fiamme con un diavolo che esce ad afferrare una vittima; la bocca dell’infemo da cui esce un diavolo.

Se l’ipotesi è corretta, l’associazione di questa carta con il [end of 424] diavolo non faceva parte dell’intensione originale, ma fu il risultato di un’interpretazione imposta alla carta nel XVI secolo, o forse ancora prima. Il disegno bolognese e quelli ‘Carlo VI’ e Rosenwald, tuttavia, non suggeriscono che l’edificio fosse in origine una torre, ma piuttosto una fortezza; né, a giudicare da queste carte, pare che il fulmine fosse la causa originaria della deflagrazione. Si è portati a supporre che il disegno del Tarocco di Marsiglia derivi da un adattamento di uno precedente, per ragioni locali. Nel 1521, quando i Francesi erano ancora in possesso di Milano, una delle torri del Castello Sforzesco, eretta sotto il duca Francesco Sforza, crollò uccidendo molti soldati francesi. Comunemente si credette che fosse stata colpita da un fulmine a del sereno; il prodigio preannuncio davvero la rapida e definitiva espulsione dei Francesi dalla città.

(Among all the triumphs, the Tower has not only the greatest number of alternative names, but also the greatest variety of illustrations. They can be divided into two classes. On the Minchiate card we see a devil emerging from the mouth of hell to drag in a woman. The card of Catelin Geoffroy shows a confusing scene full of smoke and a building in the background; in the foreground is a devil who drags a woman with one arm raised to the sky as a sign of desperation or prayer. On the deck of the anonymous Parisian, triumph XVI, called 'la Fovdre’, a devil comes out of the mouth of hell while a figure crouches on the ground in front of him. These three cards form the first of two classes: first of all there is a devil, and the design lends itself to names such as' The House of the Devil 'or ‘L’Infemo' - the name used by this Lollio and Imperiali. The second class is the most numerous and it fits names such as 'Lightning', 'Fire' and 'Foudre' ('Lightning'). In the Viéville deck and Belgian Tarot decks in general, we see lightning hitting a tree; no buildings can be seen. In all other versions, there is a tower or another edifice; in all but the Sicilian, the edifice is on fire and is usually struck by lightning. In the only handpainted version to come down to us, that in the 'Charles VI' group, there are no human figures; there appears a large building in ruins with the top on fire, but no lightning. The version on the Rosenwald sheet is very similar to the 'Charles VI' design, although simplified; Once again, there are no figures, but a large sun in the upper left corner of the card emanates rays that apparently set fire to the building. The Bolognese design, [end of 423] which appears in the sheet of the Rothschild collection and in subsequent decks, is similar, except for the addition of two figures on the ground. In the 'Budapest deck' there are no figures, but a high tower is set on fire by the rays of a sun. The Cary sheet card, the clear ancestor of the design of the Tarot of Marseilles, is not intact; it shows a cylindrical tower whose top appears unharmed and that, as can be seen, is not on fire, but could be hit by a lightning bolt from the left side, which is missing. The Tarot of Marseille shows a tower struck by lightning, with the top that crumbles and two figures that fall.

For several reasons, it would be tempting to assume that the first class of designs, and the name 'The House of the Devil' represent the original meaning of the card. It does in fact reveal a more precise idea of the one expressed by the depictions of a burning building and with names like 'Fire'. Also, this would explain why the card is invariably placed in a position immediately above the Devil; presumably the strange name ‘la Maison Dieu' stems from a misunderstanding of the name 'The House of the Devil'. However, the evidence contradicts this theory. The name provided in the oldest source, the 'Sermon de Ludo', is "Sagitta"; depictions that show a devil are rarer and go back to those that show a ruined building. In addition, the designs of the first class seem clearly derived from those of the second. On the Minchiate card the devil emerges from a crenellated building, and the flames hit him from the top of the card. It is only in two French versions - the card of the Geoffroy deck and the anonymous Parisian - that the flames come from the hell mouth and only later, in the anonymous deck, in which every trace of the building has disappeared. Rather, it is of note that in all the depictions of the second class, including the Sicilian card and with the exception of the Tarot of Marseilles, the door is a trait of particular importance in the building (the card on the Cary sheet is too fragmentary to decide). We can therefore reconstruct a line of development in the following way: an edifice in flames; a burning building with figures that fall; a devil in an edifice with flames coming out to grab a victim; the hell-mouth from which comes a devil.

If the hypothesis is correct, the association of this card with the [end of 424] devil was not part of the original intention, but was the result of an interpretation imposed on the card in the sixteenth century, or perhaps even earlier. The designs of Bologna, the 'Charles VI', and the Rosenwald, however, do not suggest that the building was originally a tower, but rather a fortress; nor, to judge by these cards, does it seem that lightning was the original cause of the explosion. One would assume that the design of the Tarot of Marseilles is derived from an adaptation of a previous one, for local reasons. In 1521, when the French were still in possession of Milan, one of the towers of the Castello Sforzesco, built under Duke Francesco Sforza, collapsed, killing many French soldiers. It was commonly believed that it had been struck by lightning out of the blue [fulmine a del sereno, "out of the serene", a colloquial expression for “unexpectedly”]; the prodigy foreshadowing the really quick and final expulsion of the French from the city.
But of course on the "Charles VI' card, which surely is before 1521, there is already lightning hitting a tower (if it is a fortress, it is also a tower). And the term "Sagitta", meaning lightning, is used in the Steele Sermon, also surely before 1521. At best the collapse of the Sforza Castle tower could give a reason for having at least one man falling from the top of the tower, instead of losing his balance at its foot, as the Bolognese card shows. However men falling from towers was already in use long before, for example in the illustration to Lydgate's Fall of Princes, which also has a devil in the doorway. And Boccaccio's description of the fall of the Tower of Babel, if it is anything like Lydgate's adaptation, also included men falling. A similar example is on Amiens Cathedral, 14th century France (right image at http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... gCathA.jpg).

Dummett claims in this case to get at an original version of the Tower:
We can therefore reconstruct a line of development in the following way: an edifice in flames; a burning building with figures that fall; a devil in an edifice with flames coming out to grab a victim; the hell-mouth from which comes a devil.

But we don't know whether the "edifice in flames" came first, or a building in flames with people falling from it. Artists copy not only from other tarot cards, but from many sources. Amiens Cathedral shows a building with people falling from it. All the artist had to do was add flames. Similarly, buildings falling down were depicted in art earlier, and all an artist had to do was add flames. Also, he doesn't distinguish between flames and lightning, an important distinction given the different names on the cards, with lightning first. Finally, lightning-struck towers with devils in them and men falling were already depicted in art before the first known evidence of the card (e.g. the Lydgate). It could just be a matter of a designer picking which features to include and which not. However it may be that the devil come out of the building is later than having him stay inside.At least I have not seen any of that type--devil emerging from building, especially a tower--before the tarot image. If it is a devil emerging from a hell-mouth, I would think there had been plenty of those around.

It remains of interest how the name "Maison-Dieu" got attached to the card. The theory that it is a mistake derived from "Casa del diaualo" is too much of a stretch, in that "a" and "e" don't look much alike, and there is also the rest of the word. "Maison-Dieu" is not a strange word in French. According to Le Grand Robert its primary meaning was to refer to the Temple of Jerusalem. The Temple of Jerusalem would have been a prime exmple of the meaning of the card, namely, a destructive act from God, designed either as punishment for rejecting Christianity or to remind us not to trust in the things of this world. If the early meaning of the card was in any way lost, it would have been by emphasizing the former of these interpretions rather than the latter. In the Bible, lightning comes from God for both reasons: in Genesis's account of the Tower of Babel, it is the former, in the Book of Job, it is the latter. In the Book of Revelation, it seems to be both, since sometimes is not tied to any misdeeds. Since this book is the only one that mentions hail, corresponding to the circles on the card, probably the primary reference of the Tarot de Marseille and Cary Sheet card is to that event. That would fit the Vieville as well, which does not even have a tower.

Another meaning of the term "Maison-Dieu". Robert says, was to designate the chief hospital of a town, Robert says. It even had the meaning of "hospital" (as well as "poorhouse") in English, the Oxford English Dictionary tells us. That would fit the interpretation of the card as reminding us to detach from the things of this world. This interpretation is supported by a woodcut series by Edward Schoen, in which, if all the astrological Houses correspond to triumphs, as they seem to, the one for the house of sickness and health, showing a man in bed being visited by others, could only correspond to this card (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... vSchon.JPG)

The term "Maison-Dieu" also meant 'House of God". That interpretation to the card would seem to be covered by the application to the Temple of Jerusalem, hospitals, and poorhouses. Churches might also be included it was no doubt true that churches, because of their steeples, were particularly susceptible to hits by lightning. Bosch has a vivid example in [iThe St. Anthony Triptych[/i] (http://uploads2.wikiart.org/images/hier ... y-1516.jpg), possibly tarot-inspired.

But the main problem with Dummett's account is his refusal to account for its place in the sequence, despite the fact that every order has it immediately after the Devil and before the Star. I return to Piscina:
After the Demons, comes Fire, as the due mean between the stars, that are celestial, and mundane things: it is, as affirmed by Naturalists or Philosophers, the [20] element that is found before the Moon, the Sun and any other Star.
It would make sense, after being captured by the Devil, for the soul to be in the house of the Devil. But in that case the drama would stop right there, instead of being, as Piscina has it, an intermediary place, where the highest is that of Paradise. So "House of the Devil" fits Anonymous's scenario but not Piscina's. Piscina's seems to me more the fire of Purgatory (Dante had a ring of fire near the top) than of Hell, and the House of the Devil only in so far as sins are of the Devil. They must be burned away before the soul can enter Heaven. And it is not even sin that has to be burned off, but attachment to material things generally. Thus in the Book of Job, Job's sons have their houses and sheep destroyed by Satan's angels,with the approval of God. Even the Tower of Babel is sinful only in the sense of trying to protect oneself from God's will. In Boccaccio and Lydgate it is presented as a king's attempt to avoid God's punishment of a flood by building towers high enough to be above it. No devil is mentioned, but the illuminator still interprets the intent as devil-inspired in the illumination to Lydgate, which puts a devil in the tower's doorway. This attempt to evade God's will of course needs to be punished; so God sends lightning, just to show that he does not merely have floods as his disposal. It is a humbling reminder that we are not in charge of our destiny. The Book of Revelation is more of the same, in which hail and fire descend from heaven at God's will, against the good and the bad alike, as a prelude to the Last Judgment. It is a this-life (or more exactly, an imagined this-life) equivalent of Purgatory, the purging of the attachment to matter.

So also, getting sick enough to go to a hospital, or poor enough to go to the poorhouse, is another wake-up call to be ready for Judgment. Such calamities are reminders not to put stock in this world, but rather to attend to the next.

Is all this part of the "surface" meaning of the card? I do not know. But it is what is needed if it is to be part of a sequence with the Devil just before it and a Star just after. Alternatively, there is a break in the sequence here, as for Anonymous, and the card, whatever it is called, serves to direct our attention to the heavens and the supernatural power that created them. Even in depictions where the heavens are not shown, where what is happening seems to be an earthquake, our attention is drawn to the source of such power, the same source that created the "supernatural" objects that follow in the sequence.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

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mikeh wrote: Huck: Yes, wings are a Venetian specialty. In the depiction you showed from Venice, all the virtues have wings. There needs to be a principle for singling out just one. That is how, to the extent that Ferrara and Venice influenced tarot in Lyons, we have an explanation for Justice with wings. It gets wings in Venice and Ferrara from being on the upper side of death and so an angel. Then in the Lyons-influenced Vieville (http://www.tarot-history.com/Jacques-Vi ... ce-web.jpg), Justice has wings, too, even though it is no longer on the far side of Death, due to copying that design.

You may be right as to the structure of Caos; but it needs more working out, not just a few chapters.
What we got in the Temperance thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=397&start=70
... were mainly these peaces of bone-art, made by the Embriachi brothers These worked first in Genova (city with a harbor) and then in Venice (city with a harbor).


Said to be a Genova stemma (wiki)
Image


Better known is this one ... the Venice' Marcus lion
Image


Both cities were well known for their power at the sea, and both prefered it to have winged animals in their heraldry, possibly to announce the swiftness of their ships.
In cities with a harbor the shops offer different objects to the tourism, even nowadays. Possibly objects "made from bone" belonged to the common harbor articles, so we find the Embriachi brothers just in such cities.

In Sicily, an island with natural ship traffic, we have, that the final Tarocchi ranking goes ... Death-Ship-Tower-Star-Sun-Moon-Atlas-Jupiter ... and the Funeral=Angel=Temperance=Fame - composition plus the Devil-demon are united to one, and the "Ship" replaces it. The sequence is reduced from 1-21 to 1-20.

The Ship following Death reminds - perhaps - best the Funeral idea as a symbol for the boat of Charon. The "lost devil" reappears as beggar, the Miseria. The upper Judgment-Angel also disappeared, it was replaced by Ganymede or the eagle, who transported Ganymede (somehow a sort of Angel).
As we know, this happened likely on the wish of a lady around 1750 (in the case, that it isn't just a pivate legend), so rather late.

For the Tarot de Marseille (Marseille also a city with a harbor) we have a winged Temperance, but in the city heraldy we have no winged animal. Researching the near important locations with harbor for a few marcant cities near the sea I detect no further winged animals in the heraldry, it are just Genova and Venice, the most imortant sea powers in 14th century, who have this quality with the winged animals.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

119
Thanks Huck. The Embriachi, of course, have their Milan connection, too, with many commissions for Giangaleazzo Visconti. In Bartolomeo's Song of the Virtues and Sciences done for Bruzio but repossessed by Matteo Visconti, I notice that Caritas is the only winged virtue (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=862&start=20#p12612). She is the highest on the page, and the one said by St. Paul to be "the greatest of these".So the highest virtue gets the wings, as MJ Hurst once said.

The reason that Venice is connected to a winged animal is that it is connected to St. Mark. And St. Mark was symbolized by a winged lion. E.g. (http://www.saintmarknorman.org/index.ph ... inged-lion):
The winged lion is the symbol of St. Mark the Evangelist, and is used as the logo for St. Mark's Parish. This symbol comes from St. Mark's description of John the Baptist's voice "crying out in the wilderness" upon hearing the Word of God (Mark 1:3). His voice is said to have sounded like that of a roaring lion. This lion symbolism also appears in a vision of the Prophet Ezekiel where four winged creatures represent the four evangelists (Ezekiel 1:10). Matthew is depicted as a human, Mark as a lion, Luke as a bull, and John as an eagle.
Griffins/gryphons were a popular heraldic device, used in many places besides Genoa. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin.

I am going to continue with my discussion of Dummett. Next we have the Star, Moon, and Sun (p. 425) :
La Stella, la Luna e il Sole presentano tratti secondari molto diversi nelle varie versioni. L’unica conclusione naturale è che questi tratti secondari siano irrilevanti per l’identità delle carte; tutto ciò che i diversi disegni hanno in comune sono solo i corpi celesti che danno il nome alle carte — sul foglio Rosenwald sono tutto quel che c’è sulle tre carte. I tratti estranei sulle carte del Tarocco di Marsiglia, risalenti per la maggior parte al modello milanese quale è esemplificato dal foglio Cary, non sono facilmente comprensibili. Forse i due bambini che compaiono sotto il Sole sul trionfo XVIIII e il gambero che emerge dalla pozza sotto la Luna sul trionfo XVIII hanno un significato astrologico: i due bambini stanno a rappresentare la costellazione dei Gemelli e il crostaceo quella del Cancro. I due cani che abbaiano alla luna sul trionfo XVIII sono un’aggiunta dei fabbricanti francesi, che non compare sulla carta del foglio Cary, ma l’idea è troppo banale per richiedere una spiegazione particolare. Non è chiaro come si possa spiegare la donna che versa acqua nel ruscello sotto la Stella del trionfo XVII; è del sesso sbagliato per rappresentare l’Acquario.

(The Star, the Moon and the Sun have very different secondary traits in different versions. The only natural conclusion is that these secondary features are irrelevant for the identity of the card; all that the different designs have in common are only the celestial bodies that give their name to the cards – on the Rosenwald sheet that is all that is there on the three cards. The strange strokes on the cards of the Tarot of Marseilles, dating for the most part from the Milanese model exemplified by the Cary sheet, are not easily understood. Perhaps the two children who appear under the sun on triumph XVIIII and the crayfish that emerges from the pool under the moon on triumph XVIII have an astrological significance: the two children are to represent the constellation of Gemini and that of the crustacean Cancer. The two dogs barking at the moon on triumph XVIII are an addition of the French manufacturers, which does not appear on the card in the Cary sheet, but the idea is too obvious to require a special explanation. It is not clear how one can explain the woman pouring water in the stream below the Star of triumph XVII; she is the wrong sex to represent Aquarius.)
If the tarot has a Petrarchan/Boccaccian base, then the most natural thing is that the three celestials represent Time. Then the "secondary" features are indeed later embellishments. It might be that at some point they came directly after Death or Temperance, with Devil and Tower as later additions. I say this only because none of the PMB or its spin-offs show these cards, and there is no Devil among any of the hand-painted cards. But there might be another explanation, such as fears or unpleasantness related to these cards. Their order would then be explained as relating to the units of time they measure off.

Another explanation for these cards might be as representing the spheres of the Cosmos above Fire, on the way to the Empyrean. That seems suggested by Piscina and perhaps even Anonymous, in that contemplation of these entities leads us to think of God. In that case, it is not clear why the Star card would be first, as the next sphere after Fire is the Moon. Ross suggested order of brightness as an easy thing to remember when playing the game. That seems an adequate explanation. The order is adjusted to fit the needs of the game.

Piscina actually gives four different explanations of why the Sun card is higher than the Moon (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_5).

Then there are the "secondary features". That the representations on the cards are so different does not mean that we can brush them aside as irrelevant, any more than we can brush aside the beginning of Hamlet's first soliloquy because it could be either "Oh, this too, too solid flesh" or "O this too, too, sullied flesh". One was first, the other second. It might be that the second version did not understand the point of the first and so the designer had something else he did understand, perhaps in part relating to his particular city. Or it might be that the second just had a different idea he thought worked better. Or perhaps both thought that what was on the card was too simple, just a star and a moon and a sun, and something more was needed, and they had different ideas of what that might be. But that does not mean that the card only means what is first. Second and third thoughts are also worthy of consideration. All we can do is record the differences and possibilities.

Dummett suggests that the secondary features of the Tarot de Marseille may have an astrological significance. I don't know about that, but they certainly correspond to signs of the zodiac. The Gemini may have been associated to the sun as wrestlers: athletes were considered "Children of the Sun". The crayfish is on "children of the moon". What Aquarius has to do with a particular Star is not clear on the surface.

In the first appearance of this design, on the Cary Sheet, there is a star on the figure's shoulder (on left at http://tarothistory.com/images/thestar.jpg). Given that the figure is nude, that suggests a particular star and goddess, Venus.

It is perhaps worth looking at the tarocchi appropriati. In Folengo, the Star card seems to be associated with Love. Folengo's (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Caos_Del_Triperuno), Also here is the one of of Ferrara 1540:
Il Sole
Virginia Trotta. - She blinds with her light.

La Luna
Violante Muzzarella. - She drives the weary sailor to the harbour.

La Stella
Giulia Trotta. - She can make you happy or disgraced.
Here again, the allusion for the Star seems to be Venus, goddess of love. That indeed fits the Leber card (http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/leber/p/16.jpg), which perhaps comes from Ferrara. The reference to sailors for the Moon is one explanation for the water on the card: the moon is responsible for the tides on which ships sail in and out of harbors.That the sun blinds is its obvious natural property; it might also explain the sunburst on the Love card, connected with Cupid's blindfold.

Actually, the gender of the figure is not clear. Young men representing Aquarius in Renaissance depictions are not that far from what we see. But it certainly does seem feminine. The two fish on the Cary Sheet suggest Pisces, which in astrology is the sign in which Venus is exalted. There is also the legend that Venus and Cupid turned into fish and jumped into the Eurphrates to escape the monster Typhon. But none of this explains the jugs with liquid coming out of them. Is it then a combining of images, Venus with Aquarius? That is possible. Such combinations of disparate imagery were not uncommon in the Renaissance.

But why Venus should be combined with Aquarius remains puzzling. Until recently all I could think of was that the two jugs are related to the two springs on top of the mountain of Purgatory in Dante (Cantos 31 and 33; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunoe), which in turn are related to the springs of Lethe and Mnemosyne at the oracle of Trophonius (http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Trophonios.html) and the two doors in Porphyry's "Cave of the Nymphs". This interpretation is confirmed in the 1520s Mantua frescoe of Giulio Romano, depicting a similar maiden pouring forth her jugs into the river Lethe, while an old man nearby does the same into the lake of Mnemosyne (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... Notat3.JPG). But this does not relate the image to Venus.

Recently, however, I read some of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso, a text already associated with the Tarot Castle cards. There is a mention of two streams there. Drinking from one makes one feel love, and the other hate. I then looked at Boiardo's Orlando Inamorato. The two streams also occur there, in Book One, Canto Three, in a woods called "The forest of Arden". The stream that instills love is a product of nature; the one nearby that instills hate, flowing from an alabaster fountain, is a product of Merlin's wizardry. He constructed it in hopes that Tristan would drink from it and so be freed with his doomed infatuation with his Queen; but Tristan failed to do so. Instead Ranaldo drinks from it and loses his passion for Angelica, while Angelica, fleeing from him, drinks from the other stream and develops a passion for Ranaldo.

It strikes me that streams of love and hate might naturally be associated with Venus, even though there is no reference to Venus here by either Boiardo or Ariosto. Since the first two books of Boiardo's poem were published in 1483 (translator Charles Stanley Ross's introduction, p. xxii) and republished many times thereafter, this is one explanation for the streams, to which the jugs are added by association to Aquarius.

If she is Venus, then there is an obvious explanation for why the Moon triumphs over her: it is a case of Diana, i.e. Chastity, triumphing over Venus, i.e. Love. Petrarch takes precedence over the cosmograph. Then for how the Sun triumphs over the Moon, Piscina has four explanations. As to why the Star triumphs over Fire, one must look at the top of the card: the planets as a whole (5 of them on the Cary Sheet, not including Sun and Moon) are more exalted than the element of Fire.

In the Tarot de Marseille there is no star on the figure's shoulder, nor any fishes (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dlgO_RTXo2k/T ... oslDod.jpg). Nor does Romano's stream-nymph have any association to Venus, but does have one to Lethe and Mnemosyne. So by then, and to be sure the time of the Tarot de Marseille, one association is lost, but others seem to be invited, such as the one with Dante's two streams at the top of the Mount of Purgatory. In that case, the stars at the top could signify something else, indicating what drinking from the streams will admit one to, namely the Heavens.

There is then the job of explaining the mountain behind the figure on the Cary Sheet (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... eetDET.jpg), and in the Tarot de Marseille, the hills, and the bird. and where the two streams are poured, Some might consider that "overinterpretation". I think that if an interpretation fits the image, adds something meaningful to the overall framework (cosmograph, moralization, etc.), and is appropriate to the times, it is not overinterpretation, by Petrarch's criteria of interpretation.

I will not get into why the crayfish on the Moon card is so big (it is usually a small one, on "children of the Moon" pictures), what the towers on either side mean, what the boy with the banner has to do with the sun, or why some cards have the pair on the Sun card as male and female, others as both male. They all invite being fit into an integrated narrative.

There is also the issue of fitting the other versions of this threefold sequence into an integrated whole of their own sequences. The Rosenwald is clear enough, with just the object corresponding to the name of the card; but the "Charles VI", Bologna, and Ferrara versions are not. It is to be sure possible that these designs came later, and designers merely put whatever they could think of on the cards. I do not think that is true in the case of the Cary Sheet.

Before the Cary Sheet, there was the PMB. This has a woman reaching for a star on the Star card, a melancholy woman as Diana holding the Moon, and a child reaching for the Sun. The Metropolitan cards (Venice or Ferrara) are somewhat similar, except that instead of a child reaching for the sun, the sun shines down on some trees (see later in this paragraph), the moon-woman no longer has Chastity's bridle (see http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... anItal.jpg), and it is a man instead of a woman reaching for the Star (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vl6sCQjmnVI/T ... dapest.jpg, which I think is inspired by Michelangelo's David). One reasonable possibility seems to me to be that these replaced Hope, Faith, and Charity of the Cary-Yale and retain some of those cards' features. In the Minchiate, the theologicals appear right after the Devil and Tower as cards 16 and 18-19, in that same order (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... peStar.jpg). Also, the PMB woman might be Elisabetta Maria Sforza, who died in childbirth at age 16. She has the hope of heaven (see http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... arSpes.jpg, which also includes Giotto's Spes). But she and Diana are probably both sad that she married so young. Charity is a gift for which whatever one has done is insufficient to merit; so is the sun with its warmth (compare http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jkTzQnuyvSQ/T ... tySun4.jpg). The sun shining on the trees is thus a kind of charity (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... villel.JPG). It also is reborn each morning, so appropriate for a child's appearance on the card.

The other main images on the cards are those of the Beaux-Arts-Rothschild group, the d'Este, and the "Charles VI". In the first two (the last is missing the card), the Star seems to be the Star of Bethlehem, and so a fit symbol of Hope (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... othshl.jpg). The Moon has astronomers or geometers, perhaps signifiying Florentine achievements in this area, or simply the idea that the microcosm is like the macrocosm, "as above, so below", the Pythagorean-Hermetic idea (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lu-6PwakMv0/S ... othsch.jpg) that Kepler and Newton later expanded upon. The lady on the Sun card might be Clotho, one of the Fates, and so a momento mori (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3u8Ar5i1Sf8/T ... eville.jpg). Clotho is associated with the Sun in one of Plutarch's essays and with the Moon in another (justifying her appearance there on the Vieville). Or she might celebrate the new art of silk weaving, as well as the idea that all labor under the sun is vanity. Vanity is also the theme of the d'Este Diogenes, where Alexander invites Diogenes to be his adviser and Diogenes replies that Alexander would be of more use not blocking his sun. Detachment from the things of this world is also a theme of the Tower card and appropriate to this section.

The main theme is the progression from star to sun by some principle. Ideally, it should be as true for the "secondary" features as for the "primary" ones, formng a sequential narrative, one scene at a higher level than the one before. Tht seems to fit the A and B cards' lower scenes, except for the Moon card. The Star card is a harbinger of salvation and the New Jerusalem. The Sun card perhaps tells us to throw off this world. But the Moon card just tells us that the moon is a fit object for mathematical study. It is an unfortunate choice, from the standpoint of seeing the scenes at the bottom as contributing to the sequence. It tends to give the impression that they are mere decoration. The PMB and Metropolitan cards are saved from that fate if they are seen as Greek gods ranked from a Christian perspective (Venus, Diana, Apollo), or as a reworking of Hope, Faith, and Charity. But some elements of the Cary Sheet celestials, and many of the Tarot de Marseille's, simply won't fit into a conventional framework at all, when these elements are looked at for their contribution to the progression of a sequence. What do a lady pouring jugs, a giant crayfish in a pond, and two boys looking at and touching each other have to do with a progression leading to the Empyrean? How does Aquarius lead to Cancer, and Cancer to Gemini? These scenes beg to be explained, even if they don't have to be to play the game. I'll visit them again when discussing "hidden meanings".

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

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re: che mia Papessa far si viene La Luna
mikeh wrote: Steve: I think "far la luna" is an idiom meaning "lunatic". At least that's what it says at https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/view/ ... nteisit/32.
Thanks for the link -- Presuming 'far si viene La Luna' may be a version of the idiomatic 'far la luna' : I can't see where it says 'far la luna' is idiomatic for 'lunatic'. I can see 'fait a lune' as meaning lunatic. Lower down there is 'far la luna' as meaning 'the cleft of the moon' (fesse la luna), the new moon, or renewal of the moon; used figurative as one who is greatly angered, full of wrath, fury (fig. di alcuno che sia in grandissima collera). One could say 'mad' I suppose, in terms of being one who is 'mad with anger'; but it could also be read ('far si viene La Luna') as something along the lines of 'that my Popesse makes the Moon grow", or ensure the renewing Moon. There is the double meaning, because the Pope(sse) lets the Turkish Empire grow; the Pope(sse) creates great anger/anguish -- and I want to hang myself.? While the Moon in general may be taken as the Turks, the crescent of the New Moon is more specifically so. Another dictionary gives also:

Far la luna V. FARE
FARE LA LUNA Dicesi del Rinnovarsi la Luna ... (making the moon is said of the renewing moon)...
E fìguralam si dice di alcuno che sia grandemente in collera. (said figuratively of one who is greatly angered)
3 4 Oh e debbo far la luna : Or ora vo dire alla padrona. (Oh, I must be 'making the moon' ('full of fury'): Now is the time to tell my Lady.)

SteveM

ps: 'far la luna' (far(e)) also means 'the moon to shine', according to Florio.