Tarot History Forum

Sorry friend, is my prehistoric English...

Is not clear the name of the triumphs in the poem.

For example:

IV.La Nora
Io son di torre la Nora chiamata,
ch'alla Frena rubai delle lenzuola
et meritavo d'essere iscopata,
andar colle granate a spasso fuora;
ma perch'io fui un po' raccomandata,
da certi amici che avevo allora,
chiamomi il quattro, e son una giustizia,
e sto in mercato accanto alla dovizia.

La Nora dont have triumph name.

Marco translated this poem almost two years ago -
http://www.tarotpaedia.com/wiki/Germini_Poem:_Part_4

It is clear that Nora is one of the "Papi" of the Minchiate trumps, so she has no explicit title.

The titles of the rest are clearly alluded to in the poems. It is the Minchiate order - which, as far as I know, never varied.

Marco Machine!

...

The titles not are in all triumphs... and I dont understan well why they are () when appeared. Are in the original in this way?

In any case, the problem are just this triumphs without title:

IV.Nora

My name is Nora from the tower,

I have stolen some sheets to Frena,

and I deserved to be given to the whip ,

and to walk out with the brooms;

but I was a little recommended

by some friends I then had,

so I am called the four, and I am a justice,

and I live in the market next to abundance.


III.Laura

They found out that one was missing

and they wanted also me to take part in this,

they cannot give me the Sun, the stars or the moon,

because they have been well assigned, without doubt.

They give me the three, they show Laura

to everyone without an interval

of the great noise (?); I am the most beautiful

and the star would have been very appropriate for me.


II.Lucia

They made me the queen of the Germini,

I was born poor and I shall die poor;

in my house there is no bread nor flour,

I am out at night and I am a beggar,

someone give me some little thing,

but I shall live as well as I can;

I drink water when I have no wine,

as Bia from Garden Street does.


I.Lena

I am poor Lena di Boncio,

I raise those children, and I cannot;

I am so angry that I can hardly stand,

often I chew on a bone, like a dog;

my blood is frozen in my veins

and never in my days I can gather a little money;

now think how we live in my house

but I must be patient, because I am named the one.


To the noble

and worthy Lady Venus

Susanna in the name of all courtesans,

who are? Popes, Pope, Emperor and Empress. Or four Popes? Or are two popes and emperor & empress? Or four Moors? Or four whores... ?

Well... Try to summarize the problem.

a) Milano - France: No changes. popess, pope, empress, emperor.

b) minchiate: Quit the papisa and change pope by Grand Duke. When? We dont know. Only it was from 1569. Another issue: What triumphs replaces the Grand Duke? The Pope or... ?

c) Roman Tarot alla Colonna, 1633. 1 Sultan. We dont know what happens with II, III, IV, but is probably was not normal:

«i soggetti dei trionfi 2, 3 e 4 nel mazzo romano dei tarocchi non potevano essere la Papessa, L’Imperatrice e l’Imperatore, como di consueto: probabilmente erano altro sovrani orientali». (Dummett)

d) Sicily: No popess and no pope > Constance & Picciotti. We believe Villabianca? Well ... at the moment we can.

e) Lucca. There are no triumphs from II to VII.

f) Belgian: Fracasso and Bacchus.

g) Swiss-German: Junon & Juno ...

+

h) Discorso Piscina: Imperatori and Papi. Dont said nothing about papessa e imperatrice.

j) Discorso Anonymous: emperor, king, pope, cardinal.

k) Cary Sheet: The pope is a bishop?

i) Mitelli, two popes and two emperors.

k) Tarocchino and the four popes transformed (when?) in four Moretti...


Well ... I hope you are working in our time machine .

Hi Marcos,

it's late here. The four "procuresses" are the four virtues, taken out of the Minciate order.

By the time of the Minchiate, one of the four "papi" was removed; we can assume it was the Popess, for a couple of reasons.

So the Minchiate only has three of the original "papi", although they call the Bagatto "papa uno". They call "Amore" "papa cinque" as well. One was dropped, that is a fact.

Yes, but the problem is who is "number 4"...

I need explain.

1. Clasic Minchiate

I il Bagatto
II il Granduca
III l'Imperatore
IIII l'imperatrice
V gli Amanti
VI la Temperanza
VII la Forza
VIII la Giustizia
VIIII la Ruota della Fortuna
X il Carro
XI l'Eremita
XII l'Appeso
XIII la Morte
XIV il Diavolo
XV la Torre
XVI la Speranza
XVII la Prudenza
XVIII la Fede
XVIIII la Speranza
XX il Fuoco
XXI l'Acqua
XXII la Terra
XXIII l'Aria
XXIIII la Bilancia
XXV la Vergine
XXVI lo Scorpione
XXVII l'Ariete
XXVIII il Capricorno
XXVIIII il Sagittario
XXX il Cancro
XXXI i Pesci
XXXII l'Acquario
XXXIII il Leone
XXXIIII il Toro
XXXV i Gemelli
• la Stella
• la Luna
• il Sole
• il Mondo
• il Giudizio
il Matto

++++

2. Poem

There are three possibilities

1 - the name is said in verses
2 - The name in brackets (it was so in the original?)
3 - Dont said the name clearly > Caution: Danger

La prima ruffiana
Seguita la rufiana

XXXX. La Susanna > [Io son le trombe = Giudizio trompet]
XXXIX. La Bia da Prato > [gli diamo del mondo l'onore = Mondo]
XXXVIII. La Castel Francha > [Io sono il Sole, = Sole]
XXXVII. La Ricciolina > [M'hanno fatto de' Germini la Luna = Luna]
XXXVI. La Buda > [Quella che apparse a' Magi in Oriente / Diana stella... = Stella]
XXXV. Cechina > [No name] > Caution: Danger
XXXIV. Bettina > [scambio di Bue = il Toro]
XXXIII. Cechina > [Del feroce Leon i' sono eletta = Leone]
XXXII. La Girolama > [No name] > Caution: Danger

Seconda ruffiana

XXXI (I Pesci). La Lena
XXVIIII (Il Sagittario). La Imbrogliona
XXVIII (Il Capricorno). La Venera
XXVII (L'Ariete). La Covona
XXVI (Lo Scorpione). La Sandra
XXV (La Vergine). La Cechona
XXIIII (La Bilancia). La Bia dal Giardino
XXIII (Aria). La Bia

Terza ruffiana

XXII (La Terra). La Bettina
XXI (L'Acqua). La Gambetta
XX (Il Fuoco). Pulcia
XV (La Torre). La Bettina di ser Agnolo
XIIII (Il Diavolo). La Salvestra
XIII (La Morte). La Cieca
XII (L'Appeso). La Fiammetta
XI (L'Eremita). La Betta
X (Il Carro). La Pierina

Quarta ruffiana

IX (La Ruota). La Quaratese
VIII (La Giustizia). La Marsilia
VII (La Forza). La Cecca
VI (La Temperanza). La Giulia
V (L' Amore). Marietta
IV.La Nora > [No name or “chiamomi il quattro”] > Caution: Danger
III.Laura > [No name or “il tre mi dan”] > Caution: Danger
II.La Lucia > [No name or “De' Germini h'han fatta la Regina” maybe the Imperatrice] > Caution: Danger
I.La Lena > [No name or “poi che l'un mi chiamo” (but she said she is poor = bagatto)] > Caution: Danger

It was Romain Merlin, a French historian of playing cards, who first gave descriptive titles to all the Minchiate cards, in his 1859 article Origines des cartes à jouer (published in 1869 as a book)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rq_QiR ... 22&f=false

see page 32

He invented the titles "Grand Duke", "Western Emperor" and "Eastern Emperor". In all previous sources about Minchiate, these cards are just Papa II, Papa III, and Papa IIII.

Papa II looks a little feminine, so it seems he is just slightly removed from being the Empress. Papa IIII (La Nora in our poem) was then probably a secularization of the Pope. But our author did not do this - the inventor of the Minchiate did.

perfect, now understand...

Well, my [poor] dates about Minchiate are:

1 Old Deck

a > Maybe Rosenwald Sheet. M. Dummett think is from firenze and ancestor of minchiate, but I am not sure. The only objective data are the centaurs. The reasoning of Dummett is fragile: Ten cases are X, so the eleventh case is X; eleven cases are X, the twelfth is X...; I need explain this in italian or spanish. Try with italian.

Molti ragionamienti di Dummett per l'ascrizione di un mazzo ad una o altra città, en realta, sotltano si basano nelle sue premmesse sul ordinamento dei trionfi (gruppi A, B, C). Allora, anche se non e chiaro il ordine, lui riordina i trionfi perche quell mazzo "apartiene" a un cualche gruppo. E come quello che va al dottore e il dottore gli disse lei a la infermità X. -Come lo sa?, domanda il infermo. -Beh, perche con il suo e il decimo caso che a questi sintomi corrisponde questa infermità. -Capisco, e con il mio, ora ne ha undici... Cioè e un circolo vizioso che si retroalimenta da se stesso e no di dati obietivi, come uno stemma araldico.

b > Spielkarten Museum of Leinfelden. 18 cards. We need find it.
http://www.spielkartenmuseum.de/docs/start.html

c > Minchiate "Etruria". 1725. No popess / King? (maybe another allegory, as Granduka) / Emperor / Emperor.
http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate%20Etruria/

d) Minchiate Fiorentine. later patern, c. 1820. Id.
http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate/Trumps.html

2 Old references.

http://trionfi.com/0/p/09/

ca. 1440: Burchiello. Probably he dont refer to the Minchiate. In any case, dont say the name of the triumphs.

1466: Pulci letter. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

1471: Cortono. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

1477: “Pilucchino”. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

1526: Florence, Italy, Francesco Berni: Capitolo del Giocco della Primiera. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

1543 Venice, Italy, Pietro Aretino: Le Carte Parlanti. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

1530-40. Angelo Bronzino. Capitolo in lode delle zanzare. L'Imperadore, e il Papa, che s'adora.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... t=bronzino

F. Pratesi. Italian Cards: new discoveries, n.5, The Playng Card, Vol. XVI, 1988. Pags 78-83.

1553: Florence, Italy: I Germini sopra Quaranta Meritrice della Città di Fiorenza. Dont say the name of the triumphs I-IV.

1598: John Florio. Dictionary Worlde of Wordes, London. Say the name of the triumphs?

1613: Alessandro Allegri, poem. Songs of dont say the name of the triumphs.

1640. Antonio Malatesti. Collection of riddles - Sfinge. Dont say the name of the triumphs.

c. 1676: Lorenzo Lippi aka Perlone Zipoli. Il Malmantile raquistato. Includes a coment by Paolo Minucci aka Puccio Lammoni: The first rules of game. We need find it.

Villabianca (1720-1802). De Giuochi volgari in genere. [Is publish in 1986 in Palermo] Dont say the name of the triumphs, and the reference is strange: Si maneggia il Giuoco con 98 carte nelle quali 42 trionfi. (In Dummett, Il Mondo...]

1752: Il Giuoco delle Minchiate: Capitolo. Livorno. The rules. We need find it.

1777: Firenze. Regole generali del Giuoco delle Minchiate. We need find it.

In the Minchiate rules ... as it seems based on a description in German language from around 1750 ... there are 5 Papi and 5 Aries, somehow relative clearly suggesting, that the game around this time was structured on the number 5 (and likely earlier, too).
The socalled versicole show a somehow confusing structure:

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... =versicole



compare http://germini.altervista.org/

10-20-30-40 mirror the usual 4-suits-structure.
1-5 (papi) and 36-40 (arie) are the top 5 and the bottom 5.

The curious 13/14 and 28 get their value by "40 divided by 3". 13 is the 13th card from bottom, 28 the 13th from top.

Curios alone is 14 (devil) - 35 (Gemini) - 39 (world), all showing nude persons 39 is one lower than 40, 14 one higher than 13, so the whole seems to a joke about the circumstance, that 40 is not dividable by 3. 35 is likely chosen, cause it is the highest numbered trump (and the name of the game ... Germini = Gemini).

1-0-40 is just "common Tarocchi game", there as 0-1-21 lowest trump, highest trump + Fool.

4 Kings are natural.

From the nature of the card game development, one has to assume, that early cards had to be cheap. Number cards are cheaper to produce than court cards. So a natural low priced or self-made card deck structure would have been the 4x10-game, only number cards. Additional courts were luxury, most games were and are likely played with less than 52 cards, though we have not much knowledge about such early "small decks".

Following this idea, one has to expect to find rules, that relate to number 40, as it is in this case. The Trionfi and Minchiate trumps are only additional cards, copying the smaller cards to another level with more cards.

In my opinion the Ferrarese shows a clear and dominant 4x5-scheme in its order.

11 - hermit, seen as old and sick man, presents a bad quality
12 - traitor, also "bad"
13 - Death, "bad"
14 - Devil, "bad"
15 - Tower, destruction, "bad".

1-5 ... 5 Persons
16-19 + 21 ... 5 arie, ruled by Borso's justice.

The 2x5-scheme appears in the 14 Bembo cards.

The 2x5-scheme is in common use in the usual abacus, which was in general use and it also appears in the Roman numbers, which are Abacus related. I, II, III, IIII, V or I, II, III, IV, V ... etc.

The 2x5-scheme appears with the 10 fingers of your two hands.

Roman numbers still were in use in 15th century. People learned it in their equivalent of "kindergarten".

marcos wrote:1530-40. Angelo Bronzino. Capitolo in lode delle zanzare. I dont know if say the name of the triumphs. We need read:

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... t=bronzino

Why you assume 1530-40 ... ?

a) Thanks Huck, very interesting. I think about it first answer.

b) Perfect... now I editing: Bronzino, L'Imperadore, e il Papa, che s'adora.

[For Pratesi cited in Dummett, "Una terza menzione, anch'essa scoperta da Franco Pratesi, è nel Capitolo in lode delle zanzare del pittore Angelo Bronzino, che Pratesi colloca nel decenio 1530-40"].

c) Thats mind we dont know when happening the change in three no popes (king?, emperor 1, emperor 2) before Minchiate "Etruria". 1725.

..........

I write to Biblioteca comunale dell'Archiginnasio for the Montieri deck. They said me:

a) We can't put images of this deck in the forum whitout her permess.

b) The deck are in Andrea Vitali, Terry Zanetti, Il tarocchino di Bologna. Storia, iconografia divinazione dal XV al XX secolo, Bologna, Martina, 2005.

Anyone has this book for compare the Moors with the Sultan in the deck Colonna?