.... :-) .... There is a tercet for 0
and then follow 21 numbers ...
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
12
Huck: That is not the section we are referring to.
If you go to : http://trionfi.com/0/h/03/
Do a control F search for Pericolo - where you find Pericolo in brackets [Pericolo] that is where the missing section is. The text before refers to King Aegeus, the text after to Caesar. The commentary for 12-16 is missing, possibly due to a gap in the original manuscript itself.
Here is the text from Trionfi:
Dubio nel undecimo loco se trova cum versi ad esso appropriati, e per il Re Egeo è significato: che dubio stando de la venuta del suo figliolo Teseo per avere...
[Pericolo]...per la figura di Cesare descripto, lo qual da Bruto e Cassio fu occiso nel Senato; vestito ne la pictura de uno manto morello, e sotto di veste d'oro: lo quale manto li cade da le spalle. Et appresso de lui sono e Bruto e Cassio, coperti de rosso: uno col pugnale nel pecto di Cesare ficto:l'altro in acto di cacciarlo; a piede di quali uno furioso toro si vede, che pericolo significa, percioché egli con le corna ferisce non vedendo il modo, il che al feritore è periculosissimo.
Here is the text from IntraText:
Dubio nel undecimo loco se trova cum versi ad esso appropriati, e per il Re Egeo è significato: che dubio stando de la venuta del suo figliolo Teseo per avere [...] per la figura di Cesare descripto, lo qual da Bruto e Cassio fu occiso nel Senato; vestito ne la pictura de uno manto morello, e sotto di veste d'oro: lo quale manto li cade da le spalle. Et appresso de lui sono e Bruto e Cassio, coperti de rosso: uno col pugnale nel pecto di Cesare ficto: l'altro in acto di cacciarlo; a piede di quali uno furioso toro si vede, che pericolo significa, percioché egli con le corna ferisce non vedendo il modo, il che al feritore è periculosissimo.
Doubt stands in the eleventh place, adorned with fitting verse, and signified through the figure of King Aegeus, for he was in doubt about the return of his son Theseus, having perhaps...
...in the image of Caesar, slain within the Senate by Brutus and by Cassius. He is pictured wearing a cloak of dark purple, draped over a robe of gold; the mantle slips from off his shoulders. Beside him stand Brutus and Cassius, clad in crimson: one drives the dagger deep into Caesar’s breast, while the other lifts his blade to strike anew.
At their feet, a furious bull is seen, its head lowered in blind assault. It wounds without aim, and in so doing, endangers not only its foe, but itself—for peril lies most with him who strikes blindly.
Except for the insertion of [Pericolo] in the Trionfi text to indicate the gap, they are identlcal. The gap in text is the same in both - the commentary breaks off with King Aegeus and then is picked up again with the figure of Caesar.
Last edited by SteveM on 22 Jun 2025, 07:48, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
14I think Marco is correct: Sophonisba, when faced with the humiliation of being paraded in Scipio’s Roman triumph after her capture, vows to die rather than suffer that fate. In response, Massinissa honors her wish and sends her poison — but the vow is hers. She chooses death; he facilitates it.mikeh wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 03:19 12 - The translation seems wrong. Italian textMarco's translation:Fede hebbe Sophonisba non suspetta
A Massinissa, che 'l venen promisse
Se a seguire el triompho era constretta.What I think:Sophonisba was faithful to Massinissa
Beyond doubt, because she promised to drink poison
If she were forced to follow the triumph.In the story, Sophonisba begs Massinissa to keep her from being paraded in Rome as a captive, even if he has to supply her with poison so she can kill herself. Massinissa, who loves her, marries her, but that is not enough. So he sends her poison, which she takes. The story is in Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 30, at https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... apter%3D12 and the next two pages.Faith had Sophonisba not doubting
Massinissa, who promised her poison
If she was forced to follow the triumph.
Sophonisba had unwavering faith,
And to Massinissa she promised to die by poison,
If she were forced to march in [Rome’s] triumph
edited to add:
Actually OR both worng
Her faithfulness is not about trusting that Massinissa will help her, but about her integrity in staying true to her vow, that she would die rather than be paraded as a trophy of war (the vow she made to Massinissa.
So Marco is correct about her it being her vow, but wrong about the object of her faith ..... ok I need to rest a while now and consider this some more lol
But for now - Her faith is in the vow she made to Massinissa
Faith unwavering lived in Sofonisba’s heart—
She vowed to Massinissa she would die,
If forced to march in triumph through the streets.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
15Steve: I can see that "suspetta" is not a verb but an adjective. That had bothered me. So your first line is good.
Literally:
Added: and "She vowed to Massinissa she would die," is similar. I assume "venen" means "poison", not "die".
I propose:
That is, she has faith that Massinissa will give her the poison she asked for and vowed she would take, even though she knows that he doesn't want to do it.
So:
Added: Sophonisba was the daughter of Hasdrubal and niece of Hannibal.
Literally:
The problem with your translation, I think, is in the second line,Faith had Sophonisba unwavering
When you say:A Massinissa, che 'l venen promisse
You ignore the "che" and the comma before it.And to Massinissa she promised to die by poison,
Added: and "She vowed to Massinissa she would die," is similar. I assume "venen" means "poison", not "die".
I propose:
This is "in" in the sense of "toward".In Massinnissa, who promised the poison,
That is, she has faith that Massinissa will give her the poison she asked for and vowed she would take, even though she knows that he doesn't want to do it.
So:
Marco's translation, has Sophonisba being faithful to Massinissa. It was not Massinissa's idea that she drink poison, and it was not primarily a vow to him; it was primarily a vow to herself, and I suppose to her Cathaginian ancestors, for which she needed his help, because she was a prisoner, to provide the poison if necessary; he promised to do so, and she trusted him. "Sophonisba had faith in Massinissa" Is different from "Sophonisba was faithful to Massinissa"; it is the former that fits the story as Livy tells it (as well as the text).Sophonisba had unwavering faith
In Massinissa, who promised the poison,
If she were forced to march in [Rome’s] triumph
Added: Sophonisba was the daughter of Hasdrubal and niece of Hannibal.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
16As I read it:mikeh wrote: 22 Jun 2025, 13:31 Steve: I can see that "suspetta" is not a verb but an adjective. That had bothered me. So your first line is good.
Literally:The problem with your translation, I think, is in the second line,Faith had Sophonisba unwaveringWhen you say:A Massinissa, che 'l venen promisseYou ignore the "che" and the comma before it.And to Massinissa she promised to die by poison,
Added: and "She vowed to Massinissa she would die," is similar. I assume "venen" means "poison", not "die".
I propose:This is "in" in the sense of "toward".In Massinnissa, who promised the poison,
That is, she has faith that Massinissa will give her the poison she asked for and vowed she would take, even though she knows that he doesn't want to do it.
So:Marco's translation, has Sophonisba being faithful to Massinissa. It was not Massinissa's idea that she drink poison, and it was not primarily a vow to him; it was primarily a vow to herself, and I suppose to her Cathaginian ancestors, for which she needed his help, because she was a prisoner, to provide the poison if necessary; he promised to do so, and she trusted him. "Sophonisba had faith in Massinissa" Is different from "Sophonisba was faithful to Massinissa"; it is the former that fits the story as Livy tells it (as well as the text).Sophonisba had unwavering faith
In Massinissa, who promised the poison,
If she were forced to march in [Rome’s] triumph
Added: Sophonisba was the daughter of Hasdrubal and niece of Hannibal.
Sofonisba had unwavering faith,
To Massinissa, she vowed to poison herself
If ever forced to walk in (Rome’s) triumph.
Or, to put it another way:
Sofonisba had unwavering faith,
She vowed before Massinissa to poison herself,
If ever forced to walk in Rome’s triumph.
Let me try and parse it:
a Massinissa, -- to Massinissa -- Indirect object (recipient of the vow)
che -- who Relative pronoun referring back to Sofonisba, the subject of the whole sentence
'l velen -- the poison -- Direct object
promisse (she) promised / vowed Verb, 3rd person singular past (from promettere)
Literally :
To / Before Masinissa, who (she) the poison vowed (if to ever follow the triumph was forced).
She had vowed, before Masinissa, (the) poison, if forced to follow the triumph
A literal reading is insufficient to convey the meaning in english without confusion.
As you are accusing me of ignoring that 'che' (who), let me try another way:
FAITH unwavering had Sofinisba,
Who vowed before Massinissa to poison herself,
If forced to be led in a Triumph.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
17I have attempted to revise the wording of the tercets so that the first word of each retains the title as in the original, hopefully without distorting the meaning.
Note: On the numbering, according to Viti, the number of the Triumph was marked in a corner of the top banner of the card. The numbers do not appear with the Tercets in the manuscript or printed versions of the poem.
WORLD, by madmen vainly loved,
A fool would boast he bears you on a donkey,
For only simpletons put trust in all you offer.
1. IDLENESS ruled in Sardanapalus, soft in down,
Sunk in concubines, gluttony and pleasures,
Till he forgot the very art of kingship.
2. LABOUR ennobled Hippolyta, who alone
Deserved the Amazonian crown by right,
And still her name flies high in Scythia and Greece.
3. DESIRE inflamed Actaeon for a form divine,
So fierce, it turned him to a stag.
Thus, let no man set his longing overhigh.
4. REASON gave Laura triumph over the wayward child,
Cupid, for she never turned her eye from virtue,
Nor ever put a foot wrong.
5.SECRECY consumed Antiochus, who pined
For Stratonice near unto death itself,
Till a gentle doctor wisely brought him aid.
6. GRACE falls not by chance on the discreet and wise,
But comes by reason, for in love, the prize is his
Who best can hide the fiercest flame within.
7. WRATH so seized King Herod’s soul,
That he had Mariamne put to death:
Then wept, and cried her name in love and grief.
8. PATIENCE dwelled in Psyche through her trials,
And so she was sustained in all her sorrows,
And made a goddess in the end, an example to us all.
9. ERROR led Jacob to serve twice seven years,
For he spoke not to Laban of his love for Rachel;
But time repaid the sum of all his losses.
10. PERSEVERANCE so lived in Penelope,
That through her weaving and un-weaving of the web,
She deserved to rejoin her beloved Ulysses.
11. DOUBT made Aegeus cruel to himself,
So he cast his life into the sea in haste,
When he saw Theseus returning under black sails.
12. FAITH unwavering had Sofonisba
In Massinissa, who promised her the poison
If she were forced to follow the triumph.
13. DECEIT was in Nessus, who told Deianira thus:
“Give Hercules this robe, dyed in my blood,
If ever love should draw you into strife.”
14. WISDOM, as in a cunning serpent, lived
In Hypermnestra, who in woman’s guise
Saved her pale husband from a fearful death.
15. CHANCE fell on Pompey, who for many years
Had sat enthroned atop the wheel of fate;
But in the end, was drowned in Fortune’s woes.
16. MODESTY lived in Aemilia, loyal wife to Scipio:
She found him lying with a serving maid,
But held her peace, and left the fault unspoken.
17. DANGER of mighty flames comes from a spark:
See Caesar struck down in the Senate hall
By two, though he'd once fled the wrath of Sulla.
18. EXPERIENCE guided Rhea, who concealed
Young Jove upon the slopes of Mount Ida,
And called for noise, to mask his infant cries.
19. TIME, who drives all men toward death,
You spared old Nestor, and though he met his end,
No tongue could well recount so long a life.
20. OBLIVION, end and boundary of all,
You led Elice, Lethe, and Dido away,
And fame and time lie buried in your ruins.
21. STRENGTH of spirit made Lucretia’s death a grace:
To clear her name, she took her life in shame,
And cast a shadowed net for him who wronged her,
A warning to all who prize their name and honour.
My Excuse : A Sonnet
(An apologetic in defence of the game)
I see my fault, yet chase the common dream,
And count my sin the lesser of the two,
For better to go astray with all the rest
Than stand alone while all the world is lost.
I see men cheat themselves to shorten time,
at times even robbing themselves of honour;*
So I, to feed the fiction even more,
Invented this same game, and paid the price.
For it is nothing but a wingéd goad
That speeds time on, so precious and so dear,
And sends it flying like a loosed arrow.
But since no hand can hold it back once drawn,**
and fleeing boredom is a natural instinct,
I too excuse myself, since I learn from nature.
*Viti rewrites this line to: To make the hours seem swifter than they are;
** Boiardo has traer = pulled/drawn, Viti has tener = loosed/ held.
Note: edited to make some amendments according to comments from MikeH in following post.
Note: On the numbering, according to Viti, the number of the Triumph was marked in a corner of the top banner of the card. The numbers do not appear with the Tercets in the manuscript or printed versions of the poem.
WORLD, by madmen vainly loved,
A fool would boast he bears you on a donkey,
For only simpletons put trust in all you offer.
1. IDLENESS ruled in Sardanapalus, soft in down,
Sunk in concubines, gluttony and pleasures,
Till he forgot the very art of kingship.
2. LABOUR ennobled Hippolyta, who alone
Deserved the Amazonian crown by right,
And still her name flies high in Scythia and Greece.
3. DESIRE inflamed Actaeon for a form divine,
So fierce, it turned him to a stag.
Thus, let no man set his longing overhigh.
4. REASON gave Laura triumph over the wayward child,
Cupid, for she never turned her eye from virtue,
Nor ever put a foot wrong.
5.SECRECY consumed Antiochus, who pined
For Stratonice near unto death itself,
Till a gentle doctor wisely brought him aid.
6. GRACE falls not by chance on the discreet and wise,
But comes by reason, for in love, the prize is his
Who best can hide the fiercest flame within.
7. WRATH so seized King Herod’s soul,
That he had Mariamne put to death:
Then wept, and cried her name in love and grief.
8. PATIENCE dwelled in Psyche through her trials,
And so she was sustained in all her sorrows,
And made a goddess in the end, an example to us all.
9. ERROR led Jacob to serve twice seven years,
For he spoke not to Laban of his love for Rachel;
But time repaid the sum of all his losses.
10. PERSEVERANCE so lived in Penelope,
That through her weaving and un-weaving of the web,
She deserved to rejoin her beloved Ulysses.
11. DOUBT made Aegeus cruel to himself,
So he cast his life into the sea in haste,
When he saw Theseus returning under black sails.
12. FAITH unwavering had Sofonisba
In Massinissa, who promised her the poison
If she were forced to follow the triumph.
13. DECEIT was in Nessus, who told Deianira thus:
“Give Hercules this robe, dyed in my blood,
If ever love should draw you into strife.”
14. WISDOM, as in a cunning serpent, lived
In Hypermnestra, who in woman’s guise
Saved her pale husband from a fearful death.
15. CHANCE fell on Pompey, who for many years
Had sat enthroned atop the wheel of fate;
But in the end, was drowned in Fortune’s woes.
16. MODESTY lived in Aemilia, loyal wife to Scipio:
She found him lying with a serving maid,
But held her peace, and left the fault unspoken.
17. DANGER of mighty flames comes from a spark:
See Caesar struck down in the Senate hall
By two, though he'd once fled the wrath of Sulla.
18. EXPERIENCE guided Rhea, who concealed
Young Jove upon the slopes of Mount Ida,
And called for noise, to mask his infant cries.
19. TIME, who drives all men toward death,
You spared old Nestor, and though he met his end,
No tongue could well recount so long a life.
20. OBLIVION, end and boundary of all,
You led Elice, Lethe, and Dido away,
And fame and time lie buried in your ruins.
21. STRENGTH of spirit made Lucretia’s death a grace:
To clear her name, she took her life in shame,
And cast a shadowed net for him who wronged her,
A warning to all who prize their name and honour.
My Excuse : A Sonnet
(An apologetic in defence of the game)
I see my fault, yet chase the common dream,
And count my sin the lesser of the two,
For better to go astray with all the rest
Than stand alone while all the world is lost.
I see men cheat themselves to shorten time,
at times even robbing themselves of honour;*
So I, to feed the fiction even more,
Invented this same game, and paid the price.
For it is nothing but a wingéd goad
That speeds time on, so precious and so dear,
And sends it flying like a loosed arrow.
But since no hand can hold it back once drawn,**
and fleeing boredom is a natural instinct,
I too excuse myself, since I learn from nature.
*Viti rewrites this line to: To make the hours seem swifter than they are;
** Boiardo has traer = pulled/drawn, Viti has tener = loosed/ held.
Note: edited to make some amendments according to comments from MikeH in following post.
Last edited by SteveM on 14 Jul 2025, 09:34, edited 13 times in total.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
18Your translation does a great job of preserving the tone of the original, Steve, as well as being faithful to the original, but I still disagree with you about the Faith tercet. Let me try one more time to persuade you. You wrote
And Masinissa does give his word:
Otherwise, the only thing I wish could be improved is the line "To clear her name, she took her life in shame". Boiardo is more compact: "She took her life to purge her fama." The word "purge" implies something that needs purging, i.e. her shame. And what she is doing is restoring her honor. You have adroitly combined the two with "clear her name ... in shame." I just wish there was a compact way of saying it, such as "restore her honor" and "purge her shame", but implying both. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything.
There are two other things that are in more serious need of fixing. One is the numbering. That is Viti, not Boiardo. And even Viti does not use the word "zero". That would align Viti (and Boiardo) with the Sola-Busca, the only early tarocchi I know of that has a zero (for the Fool, of course). Viti simply doesn't give it a number, nor call it a triumph. That is in accord with practice in his time, ca. 1495, but whether it was true when Boiardo wrote the tercets is not clear.
Another thing is the "Excuse" sonnet. The final sonnet that you translated is not Boiardo's; it is Viti's. He says explicitly that he is rewriting the sonnet.
Note: I have edited the above, starting with the "excuse", slightly since my original posting. And thanks for the corrections, Steve, on this final sonnet. The differences weren't as great as I was imagining.
I of course think that a literal reading is quite sufficient to convey the meaning. There is no need to change a noun (il venen) into a verb, and a reflexive one at that. "Che" does not refer to Sophinisba, but rather to Masinissa. She made no vow to poison herself if forced to follow the triumph. She entreated Masinissa to grant her death if forced to follow the triumph, and it was Masinissa who made the vow or promise. Here is Livy (https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... apter%3D12):Let me try and parse it:
a Massinissa, -- to Massinissa -- Indirect object (recipient of the vow)
che -- who Relative pronoun referring back to Sofonisba, the subject of the whole sentence
'l velen -- the poison -- Direct object
promisse (she) promised / vowed Verb, 3rd person singular past (from promettere)
Literally :
To / Before Masinissa, who (she) the poison vowed (if to ever follow the triumph was forced).
She had vowed, before Masinissa, (the) poison, if forced to follow the triumph
A literal reading is insufficient to convey the meaning in english without confusion.
As you are accusing me of ignoring that 'che' (who), let me try another way:
FAITH unwavering had Sofinisba,
Who vowed before Massinissa to poison herself,
If forced to be led in a Triumph.
"... If no other way is possible then I implore you to save me by death from falling into Roman hands." [17] Sophonisba was in the bloom of youth and in all the splendour of her beauty, and as she held Masinissa's hand and begged him to give his word that she should not be surrendered to the Romans, her tone became one of blandishment rather than entreaty.
And Masinissa does give his word:
He decides that if he marries her, that will save her from being paraded in triumph by the Romans, because her status will be elevated to that of wife of a Roman general. So they marry, in a Carthaginian ceremony. Her agreement to marry him implies, I think (and would have to Boiardo) that she has faith he will keep his promise if this strategem should fail, despite his great love for her. But Scipio will not relent: Scipio thinks that her loyalty to Carthage will make her a continued danger, and that she is simply manipulating Masinissa. Livy goes on:He gave her his solemn assurance that he would do what she wished him to do and then retired into the palace.
It is true that she is keeping faith with her father and her uncle by refusing to be humiliated. That did not need a vow. The vow is Masinissa's. And her agreeing to marry him implies her faith in him that he will honor her wish, against his strong inclination otherwise. After all, once they submitted to the Romans, people did sometimes regain their freedom as long as they remained loyal to Rome, an outcome he would have preferred.In hearing this Masinissa blushed furiously and even shed tears. He said that he would comply with the general's wishes, and begged him to take into consideration, as far as he could, the pledge he had rashly given, for he had promised that he would not let her pass into any one's power. [2] Then he left the headquarters tent and retired to his own in a state of distraction. [3] Dismissing all his attendants he remained there some time, giving vent to continual sighs and groans which were quite audible to those outside. [4] At last with a deep groan he called one of his slaves in whom he placed complete confidence and who had in his keeping the poison which kings usually have in reserve against the vicissitudes of Fortune.
Otherwise, the only thing I wish could be improved is the line "To clear her name, she took her life in shame". Boiardo is more compact: "She took her life to purge her fama." The word "purge" implies something that needs purging, i.e. her shame. And what she is doing is restoring her honor. You have adroitly combined the two with "clear her name ... in shame." I just wish there was a compact way of saying it, such as "restore her honor" and "purge her shame", but implying both. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything.
There are two other things that are in more serious need of fixing. One is the numbering. That is Viti, not Boiardo. And even Viti does not use the word "zero". That would align Viti (and Boiardo) with the Sola-Busca, the only early tarocchi I know of that has a zero (for the Fool, of course). Viti simply doesn't give it a number, nor call it a triumph. That is in accord with practice in his time, ca. 1495, but whether it was true when Boiardo wrote the tercets is not clear.
Another thing is the "Excuse" sonnet. The final sonnet that you translated is not Boiardo's; it is Viti's. He says explicitly that he is rewriting the sonnet.
Boiardo's sonnet is something else, which we see at the very end of http://www.dominiopublico.gov.br/downlo ... 000122.pdf. Actually, he has two of them. Perhaps you could have a go at translating it.Et ad ciò che voi, Patrona mia, abiate il compimento di questa mia longa descrizione, voglio ancora riscrivere il sonetto, che ne l'ultima carta, drieto a tutti li Trionfi, si pone:
(And so that you, my Patroness, may have the completion of this long description of mine, I want to rewrite the sonnet which is placed on the last page, after all the Triumphs:)
Note: I have edited the above, starting with the "excuse", slightly since my original posting. And thanks for the corrections, Steve, on this final sonnet. The differences weren't as great as I was imagining.
Last edited by mikeh on 23 Jun 2025, 10:01, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
19Nice, that you have so much fun with the humble translation problems of the Boiardo Tarocchi poem.
But you've overlooked the following post. I explain the context.
MikeH recently claimed that the Boiardo Tarocchi poem was made in the 1470s, possibly even in the 1460s. I don't remember where, but I saw it. For Steven I found the same position in the year 2016.
I think, that these positions nonsense.
Part of the reasons for my opinion is in the post, that I've written and that you overlooked. So I removed the post and show it here again.
I explain, what this is to avoid misunderstandings.
There are 3 pictures with 3 self-murdering women, which all appear as figures in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (wife of Hasdrupal, Portia, wife of Brutus, Lucretia). The pictures are said to be produced by Ercole de Roberti in the period 1487-1493 (year of the death of Leonora of Aragon, wife of Ercole d'Este). It's assumed, that the pictures were commisioned by the same Leonora. Ercole de Roberti became the court painter 1486/87.
Leonora was praised for her wisdom and courage in the Ferrarese war 1484. After this time a specific Ferrarese writing style developed with the characteristique, that women are presented to be better than men. This style was also used in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem. The notary Bartolomeo Goggio ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Goggio
I hope, that this was clear enough in the manner, that the interpretation of the poem as from the 1460s or 1470s is completely nonsense. And this is already clear since 2007.
So, this is now the text, which I moved from .... posting.php?mode=edit&p=27404,
But you've overlooked the following post. I explain the context.
MikeH recently claimed that the Boiardo Tarocchi poem was made in the 1470s, possibly even in the 1460s. I don't remember where, but I saw it. For Steven I found the same position in the year 2016.
I think, that these positions nonsense.
Part of the reasons for my opinion is in the post, that I've written and that you overlooked. So I removed the post and show it here again.
I explain, what this is to avoid misunderstandings.
There are 3 pictures with 3 self-murdering women, which all appear as figures in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (wife of Hasdrupal, Portia, wife of Brutus, Lucretia). The pictures are said to be produced by Ercole de Roberti in the period 1487-1493 (year of the death of Leonora of Aragon, wife of Ercole d'Este). It's assumed, that the pictures were commisioned by the same Leonora. Ercole de Roberti became the court painter 1486/87.
Leonora was praised for her wisdom and courage in the Ferrarese war 1484. After this time a specific Ferrarese writing style developed with the characteristique, that women are presented to be better than men. This style was also used in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem. The notary Bartolomeo Goggio ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Goggio
I saw, that this book was given to 1490.Bartolomeo Goggio (also known Goggi, Gogio, and Gogo) was an Italian writer and notary. He was born in Ferrara circa 1430 and died some time after 1493. He is most recognized for De laudibus mulierum [On the Merits of Women], written in the late 1480s, which was dedicated to Eleanor of Naples, Duchess of Ferrara. Only one surviving manuscript of De laudibus mulierum, held at the British Library, is known to exist.For this work, Goggio is recognized as a contributor to the pro-woman side of the querelle des femmes — "a debate about the nature and worth of women that unfolded in Europe from the medieval to the early modern period". In De laudibus mulierum Goggio argues for the superiority of women. After Eleanor's death, Goggio wrote another philosophical work, De nobilitate humani animi opus.
I hope, that this was clear enough in the manner, that the interpretation of the poem as from the 1460s or 1470s is completely nonsense. And this is already clear since 2007.
So, this is now the text, which I moved from .... posting.php?mode=edit&p=27404,
https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/donn ... do.116722/ .... written 2006/2007 (?)
Well, I found it now (2025)"Donne Illustri" cycle Ferrara 1486-90 / Boiardo
Link to the book "Gender in Debate from the Early Middle Ages to the Renaissance" by Thelma Fenster, Clare A. Lees , published at Palgrave Macmillan, 20.03.2002 :
https://books.google.de/books?id=TY2v2T ... #PPA197,M1
Leonora d'Este [I don't know, why I wrote "Leonaro" , probably I meant Ercole d'Este then] is assumed to have ordered 3 paintings of Ercole Roberti in 1486-1490, just in the period, when we date the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (which includes "donne illustri") made for the marriage of Lucrezia d'Este in 1487 and when the Ferrarese notary Goggio wrote his praise on women with the then new maxime "women are better than man" (text production is dated with 1487 - 1490).
The three topics chosen are ....
1. the unnamed wife of Hasdrubal, who killed her children and herself
2. Portia, wife of Brutus, who killed herself
3. The Roman Lucretia, who killed herself
... with the common motif in all 3 pictures is, that all 3 women killed herself.
1. the wife of Hasdrubal was discontent with the behaviour of her husband
2. Portia promoted her husband.
3. Lucrezia was raped by Tarquinius Superbus and demanded revenge
The specific circumstances of the old stories are all different, of course.
Curiously in the real story of the North Italian higher society two strange occurances appeared at two of the minor courts in the relevant time (spring 1488), one with the involvement of the Bentivoglio-family of Bologna (the family, to which Lucrezia d'Este had married), another one with Catherina Sforza.
Francesca Bentivoglio (sister to Annibale, Lucrezia's husband) had married in 1482 and had trouble with her husband in 1488. She returned to the home of her parents, but was forced to go back, and she set up a trap in her bedroom with 4 assassins. When these didn't solve the bloody job, she herself took a sword and killed him. The result were various hectical actions, nearly a war, worse developments were hindered by the mediation of Lorenzo de Medici. Finally Francesca left the scene victorious.
The murder happened 31st of May, 1488.
Girolamo Riario, husband of Caterina Sforza, was killed by assassins at 14th of April, 1488. In the following scenario the young widow Catherina could escape and - ALSO - was finally victorious. Catherina behaved already rather brave in August 1484 after the death of Sixtus, and did it in a similar way later, when her second was killed, also.
Another "brave woman" Leonora herself had been in the Ferrarese war, when her husband was ill and wounded and she took the command.
So we have a series of brave activities of women in the time, when the pictures were ordered and painted:
by Ercole de' Roberti (c. 1451 – 1496), also known as Ercole Ferrarese or Ercole da Ferrara
Hadrubal's wife with children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasdrubal_the_Boeotarch
"He also had a wife and two sons, who, according to an account by Polybius, threw themselves into a burning temple when they saw Hasdrubal's army defeated by the Roman attackers. Hasdrubal surrendered himself to the Romans after his family's unfortunate deaths, but what happened to him after that is not known."
Brutus and Portia ... of special signifying importance is the bloody wound at the right foot.Bild_2025-06-23_101857757.png Viewed 2736 times 447.44 KiB
Portia (in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar) - "Brutus’s wife; the daughter of a noble Roman who took sides against Caesar. Portia, accustomed to being Brutus’s confidante, is upset to find him so reluctant to speak his mind when she finds him troubled. Brutus later hears that Portia has killed herself out of grief that Antony and Octavius have become so powerful."
[picture somehow lost]
229126.JPG
picture estimated from 1500-1550 (Brutus and Portia), one can see the knife in the foot of Portia.
The common story ..
"Brutus and Portia's marriage appears to be based on mutual respect and love. Portia is not afraid to stand up to Brutus and demand that he treat her as a "woman well reputed." She desires to share his secrets and his worries, and she is even willing to wound herself to show her bravery. When she slashes her thigh, she is showing that she will not reveal Brutus' secrets even under pain of torture. Brutus sees how determined Portia is to prove that she is "stronger than her sex," and he rewards this sentiment with loving respect. Portia's argument with Brutus can be contrasted with Caesar's argument with Calpurnia. Caesar is far more authoritarian, and seems not to care that he is humiliating Calpurnia and causing her a great deal anguish in refusing to heed her advice regarding his meeting with the Senate. "
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_was_Brutu ... s_marriage
There's a difference of "hurting the thigh" and "hurting the right foot" in the stories, the Ferrarese version prefers the "hurted foot".
Strange enough, the wound at the right foot reminds the stigmata of Jesus and later - after the painting of Portia by Ercole Roberti - the Ferrarese duke Ercole d'Este became rather crazy about stigmated and holy virgins. He tried to get one to Ferrara already in 1497, he got one in 1499 and had 3 of them in 1501.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/magic_ritu ... erzig.html
*****
Unluckily I couldn't detect the third Roberti picture in the web, which should show Lucrezia, her husband Collatinus and Junius Brutus.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 490_ca.jpg
Added later;
There is a complex description in the Italian wikipedia: .... https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia, ... _Collatino
translated to English: .... https://it-m-wikipedia-org.translate.go ... r_pto=wapp
There is also Brutus and Portia in English wiki .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_and_Portia
There is also the wife of Hasdrubal and her children in English wiki .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wife_ ... r_Children
There are 22 biographies of Ercole de Robert (1451-1496) in 22 languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ercole_de%27_Roberti
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ercole_de’_Roberti
translated .... https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.go ... r_pto=wapp
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ercole_de%27_Roberti
translated .... https://it-m-wikipedia-org.translate.go ... r_pto=wapp
The distance between Ferrara and Bologna are about 50 kilometers. The biography of Ercole de Roberti takes place in this both cities.
One source claimed, that Roberti made a lot of pictures and that much of them were destroyed. with 17-19 he participated at the month pictures of the Palazzo Schifanoia. Since 1473 he worked in Bologna. One work was in Ravenna (73 km from Ferrara). 1479 he was back in Ferrara. 1486/87 he became court painter for the d'Este court. This is the time of my dating for the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (wedding Lucretia d'Este with Annibale Bentivoglio in late January 1487).
The picture with Brutus and Portia is given to 1487-1490 and the other both pictures Lucretia and Hasdrubal wife to 1490-1493. 1493 the commissioner Eleanore d'Aragon, wife of Ercole d'Este), died .
Last edited by Huck on 25 Jul 2025, 09:14, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Boiardo Tarocchi poem (trionfi)
20Sorry, Huck, I had other commitments that prevented me from finishing a post on the dating. I have been looking to see what others think, even if I expect that they will make no impression on you. Caterina Baldi, in 2008 citing Boiardo's 1993 editor, Simona Foà, on p. 9 of her 1993 edition, says that the text was probably 1461, with Vito's manuscript at least twenty years after: "il testo di Boiardo è stato scritto probabilmente nel 1461 e il manoscritto del Viti almeno vent’anni dopo." https://www.ledonline.it/acme/allegati/ ... -Baldi.pdf, p. 82 and n. 17. Since Viti was born around 1470 and died in 1500, twenty years is a bit early.
At https://spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquera ... iardo.html, Mark Filipas gives his translation of what the artist Maurizio Bonora, 1996, wrote for his reconstruction of the deck:
About the three paintings you talked about earlier: I see no direct relationship to Boiardo's poem. The only one that illustrates one of Boiardo's tercets is that about Lucretia. That was a common name among ruling families then, and they all would have known the story of their namesake. If they were using Boiardo, Hasrubal's daughter, rather than his wife, whom Boiardo doesn't mention, would have come to mind first.
What links these paintings together is that they were probably commissioned for Ercole's wife Eleanor of Naples, as they illustrate her father's motto, "Preferisco la morte al disonore" - "I prefer death to dishonor." It strikes me that Boiardo might have designed his game with Eleanor in mind, to present at her wedding to Ercole in 1473. If so, he would have composed the tercets sometime after their betrothal, or at least not long after the marriage. I don't know when the betrothal was, but it would have been after the annulment of her marriage to Sforza Maria Sforza, which would have been after Galeazzo Maria refused to honor his father's marriage commitments. He became duke in 1466. So again, 1469-1479 is reasonable, more likely earlier than later.
You say that praising women over men became fashionable after 1484. Such precise dating seems to me untenable. The author you quote says, "a debate about the nature and worth of women that unfolded in Europe from the medieval to the early modern period". There was, for example, Boccaccio's In praise of famous women, 14th century. It is believable that Boiardo wrote his tercets to honor Eleanor; but that encompasses a period of time extending earlier than post-1484.
At https://spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquera ... iardo.html, Mark Filipas gives his translation of what the artist Maurizio Bonora, 1996, wrote for his reconstruction of the deck:
I would think that the 1469-1479 estimate I quoted earlier is the most reliable, as the author, a professor at Columbia University, edited a Boiardo anthology and is thus very familiar with his work, even if some clearly think it is earlier.In the year 1465, for the grand court under the regency of Duke Borso, the poet Matteo Maria Boiardo, Count of Scandiano, composed two sonnets and seventy-eight three-line stanzas for a new game of Triumphs set to the description of human passions. After approximately three decades, pier Antonio Viti from Urbino, upon request of one lady from the Urbanite Court, made sketches for many of the eighty cards.
About the three paintings you talked about earlier: I see no direct relationship to Boiardo's poem. The only one that illustrates one of Boiardo's tercets is that about Lucretia. That was a common name among ruling families then, and they all would have known the story of their namesake. If they were using Boiardo, Hasrubal's daughter, rather than his wife, whom Boiardo doesn't mention, would have come to mind first.
What links these paintings together is that they were probably commissioned for Ercole's wife Eleanor of Naples, as they illustrate her father's motto, "Preferisco la morte al disonore" - "I prefer death to dishonor." It strikes me that Boiardo might have designed his game with Eleanor in mind, to present at her wedding to Ercole in 1473. If so, he would have composed the tercets sometime after their betrothal, or at least not long after the marriage. I don't know when the betrothal was, but it would have been after the annulment of her marriage to Sforza Maria Sforza, which would have been after Galeazzo Maria refused to honor his father's marriage commitments. He became duke in 1466. So again, 1469-1479 is reasonable, more likely earlier than later.
You say that praising women over men became fashionable after 1484. Such precise dating seems to me untenable. The author you quote says, "a debate about the nature and worth of women that unfolded in Europe from the medieval to the early modern period". There was, for example, Boccaccio's In praise of famous women, 14th century. It is believable that Boiardo wrote his tercets to honor Eleanor; but that encompasses a period of time extending earlier than post-1484.