Tarot History Forum

Hello

I discovered an article about Luigi Montieri and his life in the Treccani encyclopedia and I see that at the very bottom of the bibliography it indicates the documents that Steve wrote in English. It seems that the original title was in Italian:

Mss., B.84: D.M. D’Andrea galeati, Diario o siano notizie varie di Bologna dall’anno MDCCIV all’anno MDCCXXVII, V, p. 205

Treccani:
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/lu ... ografico)/

I don't see in Treccani in which archive it is preserved but in google i find this at Biblioteca Comunale Archiginnasio.

By the way, I see texts that present Luigi Montieri as a deacon and others however say that he was a canon. Treccani says that he was a priest and a canon. Priest ir higher than deacon. So I think it is incorrect to say that Montieri was a deacon. Right? I also read that he was the secretary of the bishop or the archbishop. Then i supose he was canon with the function like secretary.

Thanks Steve and Mike for the information you have shared. Where does the idea that perhaps Bentivoglio was offended by the Tarocchini Montieri come from? I imagine that perhaps it is a suggestion by Giordano Berti, who I believe considers the Fibbia painting to be from the 18th century, while Andrea considers the Fibbia painting to be from the 17th century. Am I right? It would be good to find out if there was a Bentivoglio and Fibbia shield in Tarocchino from the 17th century as suggested by the Fibbia painting according to Andrea's dating, since Tarocchino dalla Tore has no Fibbia shield or Bentivoglio shield, although one queen is missing.

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Another thing. Mike, I can now see the photographs correctly. I don't know what you did but you fixed it. I will try to follow your instructions to try to put some images here, let's see if I can. Thank you very much.

I suppose that the photograph ITA 12 really corresponds to three cards from a Tarocchino al Mondo deck as indicated in the Killer catalogue. You say that this image is in volume 4, I suppose at Yale, although I don't know how to access volume 4. Also, I've looked for Tarocchini on the Yale website but it seems that they are not scanned or at least I can't find any images. The thing is that I'm surprised that these three cards are Al Mondo since they are Moors with a globe like in Al Soldato. So, I find it very interesting that there is an Al Mondo edition with a Moors design similar to Al Soldato. I think that it is confirmed that Tarocchino al Mondo British Museum (Moors without a globe) is a later design than the Al Soldato and Ita 12 designs, as we said when questioning Benedetti's note that is on the British Museum website regarding his Tarocchini. I see that the image has the cards elongated but I understand that this deformation is an effect of perspective, since it seems like a photograph taken in a way that is not perpendicular to the cards. The stroke of Ita 12 seems neglected and old. It would be good to know when the Al Mondo brand was born or founded in order to know the maximum age of the Tarocchini al Mondo. I imagine that Al Soldato was possibly an older factory than Al Mondo. In case nobody knows when the Al Mondo factory was founded, we can be guided by other Al Mondo decks that are the oldest, even if it is the common four-suit deck without trumps.

Ita 12 and Ita 13 have a panel on the back, according to the Killer catalog. I suppose that both editions had the same back and I wonder if perhaps that panel is the same as the shield on the back of the Tarocchino al Mondo British Museum with the Pepoli Colonna shield.

Thanks Mike for the explanation about the bibliography of the text on the Al Leone workshop: an article within a book by Lo Scarabeo. Very good.

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Steve, it would be interesting to know what family relationship there was between Giovanni Paolo Pepoli and Scinio Pepoli, if only out of curiosity, to understand the context. As for Teresa Pepoli Colonna (1726-1800) I don't quite understand what relationship she has with the Pepoli Colonna coat of arms of the Tarocchini al Mondo. Teresa was born in 1726, which was possibly the year in which the traditional Tarocchini began to be made with Moors. That's curious. But the important thing is that the back of Al Mondo is a tribute to the Pepoli Colonna couple. Or you think that Teresa is associated with Tarocchini? We know that Scinio was married in 1720. I dont know whay Teresa is important in your image.

Magic Moon: I have no information about the "Al Mondo" shop in Bologna beyond what I've shared, about the 18th century. Earlier I cited a couple of books that might have more, cited by Alberto Beltramo in his essay for Andrea's and my 2022 book: Giordano Berti, Marisa Chiesa, Giuliano Crippa, Antichi tarocchi bolognesi (Torino: Lo Scarabeo, 1995); and Lucia Nadin Bassani, Carte da gioca e letteratura tra quattrocento e ottocento (Lucca, Pacini Fazzi, 1997).

Two others referenced by Beltramo are Marina Morena, “L’amministrazione del bollo e fabbricazione delle carte da gioco nello stato pontificio (1588-1837),” Rassegna degli archivi di stato 52 (1992), No. 2, pp. 328-60, in particular pp. 328-29; and Morena, “Passatempi popolari fra i sudditi pontifici: le carte da gioco,” in Il tempo libero, Economia e società (Loisirs, Leisure, Tempo Libre, Freizeit) secc. XIII-XVIII (Florence: Le Monnier, 1995), pp. 427-39, in particular pp. 427-28.

I have not consulted them.

Vol. 4 of Keller's 1981 catalog is hard to get. I wasn't successful even via interlibrary loan. I feel lucky that my local library was able to convince another library to make a pdf of a few pages that I requested, which included the tarocchini images. The Beinecke Library may well now be able to send you good color scans of
their tarocchini if you ask, even if they are not on their website. Just cite the catalog numbers and a short description. And be sure to mention the particular cards of your interest, and that you'd like to see an example of the back.

Thanks for the bibliographic information on Galeati.

Thanks, Mikeh. Maybe I'll request images of the cards, as you say. That would allow us to find out which Tarocchino models are, the Ita 11 and Ita 13. The big discovery for me is that the Ita 12 is a Tarocchino with the same design (very similar) to the Tarocchino al Soldato, that is, with two Moors holding a globe in their hands and another holding a bird. The image you showed only has two Moors, but it's enough to know which pattern the Ita 12 most closely resembles. This is a great discovery. I think that was the standard pattern and that the Tarocchino al Mondo from the British Museum was an occasional variant made by Al Mondo. In other words, Al Mondo made two different patterns. One was like the Tarocchino al Soldato and is called the Ita 12, if I understood correctly. The other was different and is in the British Museum

Magic Moon wrote (a couple of posts back)

Where does the idea that perhaps Bentivoglio was offended by the Tarocchini Montieri come from? I imagine that perhaps it is a suggestion by Giordano Berti, who I believe considers the Fibbia painting to be from the 18th century, while Andrea considers the Fibbia painting to be from the 17th century. Am I right?

About Bentivoglio being offended by the Tarocchini Montieri, I have no idea what the basis could be. Berti sometimes has strange ideas, but it would be good to check out. Based on the Bentivoglio family history and the uniting of shields on tarocchini decks with the Fibbia family, they would have been as anti-papal as Pepoli.(On Bentivoglio/Fibbia political leanings, see my post at viewtopic.php?p=26774#p26774).

Andrea's basis for dating the Fibbia painting to the 17th century was the clothing, as attested in private correspondence with Elisabetta Gnignera, an expert on historical European dress (as he says in a footnote to his essay in the book he and I edited). I don't know the specifics, or even if Andrea knows them. And I don't see how the clothing would prove anything. The artist was intending to show someone who lived in the past; so naturally, he would give them clothing from the past, if he could. He may not have seen any ca. 1400 portraits of men looking distinguished in clothing of that time (as opposed to ridiculous). But perhaps painters conventionally portrayed their patron's remote ancestors in the clothing of the painter's own time, I don't know.

Hello
Thanks Mike for your explications. Sometimes I dont write if I am thinking about or I dont have gooh ideas.

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I can't find a thread about the Marseilles order, so I'm writing this question here.

There are six 16th-century playing cards in the Marseilles design that are supposedly kept at the Castello Sforza in Milan. They are trump cards with a number at the top and no name written below. For example, one is the World card, and I've seen the image. I can't find any images of the other cards or websites that explain anything. I think they are cards that appeared in an excavation or well at the Castello Sforza. I think Alejandro Khodorovsky sometimes speaks as if he participated in finding these cards, but I'm not sure they're the same cards. I'd like to know when these cards were discovered. I've written to the Castello Sforza in Milan, but they haven't responded. I'd like to know exactly which cards they are and if it's possible to see them on display if I go to Milan. A friend saw a video where some of the cards were mentioned, but there are some questions, and I'm missing the name of one of them, assuming there's no mistake in that information.

By the way, Jodorowsky's explanations suggest that his edition of the Tarot, created with Camoin, is a reconstruction of the oldest Marseilles Tarot, but I don't think any book or article explains in detail how they came to invent each detail in the edition created by the two friends. They say it's the original design, but they don't explain how they invented it. It's difficult to find reliable historical information from them, as they speak of fantasies and invent ideas claiming they are the truth. The reader can easily become confused. Camoin says the Tarot is the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, but it's better not to mention that because it's already more fanciful. I'll settle for finding out something about those six Marseilles cards, which are the oldest known of the Marseilles design, and are quite unknown and mysterious. Thank you.

This is one card:

Magic Moon wrote: 25 Apr 2025, 22:23
There are six 16th-century playing cards in the Marseilles design that are supposedly kept at the Castello Sforza in Milan. They are trump cards with a number at the top and no name written below.

The world is the only trump card of the six, the other 5 are:

6 of Swords
6 of Coins
7 of Swords
8 of Batons
9 of Swords

According to Dummett, though the world does have the number XXI at the top, the [missing] fold of the backing would have covered it up. Dummett considered them morely likely 17th century.

Magic Moon wrote:
By the way, Jodorowsky's explanations suggest that his edition of the Tarot, created with Camoin, is a reconstruction of the oldest Marseilles Tarot, but I don't think any book or article explains in detail how they came to invent each detail in the edition created by the two friends.

Jodorowsky had nothing to do with the discovery of the Caslte Sforza cards. Camoin goes into some detail about the construction of their deck and its sources. Basically they exammined a variety of Tarot de Marseille like style cards from Marseille, Avignon, Lyon,Paris, Besancon, Switzerland, Italy and cherry picked details they thought had some esoteric or symbolic significance or decorative appeal for the construction of their deck. For more details see thread here:

viewtopic.php?t=2669

On the Sforza Castle cards, see the thread "Sforza Castle Cards," viewtopic.php?t=753.

This is a currently active thread, so visible if you go to 'main rooms" at the top of every page.

For Jodorowsky's sources, see the thread "Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources," as SteveM indicated,
viewtopic.php?p=25799#p25799.

You can find most everything on THF using the search tool, top right of every page. Sometimes it will say "word too common"; in that case, use another word. For your first question, you can use "Castle". For the second "Jodorowsky".

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SteveM wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 08:15 Luigi Montieri had dedicated his deck to Giovanni Paolo Pepoli, whose stemma [checkerboard pattern] appeared on the shield of Europa on the back of the cards, & frontpiece to text next to the Coat of Arms of Bologna:

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The deck caused offence to the Papal Legate however, while the cause of Cardinal Ruffo's chagrin was not made clear, some speculated that it was because of the description of Bologna [a Papal state] as being of mixed government:

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I know the allegorical figure is for Geografia on the frontispiece but she essentially holds the same attributes as the Casa Minerbi-Sale Giottoesque Prudence in Ferrara - compass and world:


To my mind at least, even by this date someone understood the connection of the 'World' (Prudence) card to rightful ruling of dominions and made it the proper subject of a game.

Also, in that second image - is the standard Bolognese Fool, with drum and trumpet, also holding a verge escapement like the Catullus card in the Sola Busca? What is throwing me off is the second weight is "up" when it should be hanging down like the other.

Phaeded wrote: 13 May 2025, 15:20 Also, in that second image - is the standard Bolognese Fool, with drum and trumpet, also holding a verge escapement like the Catullus card in the Sola Busca? What is throwing me off is the second weight is "up" when it should be hanging down like the other.

You mean the whirlyjig? It's not an escapement but a toy that spins in the wind.