Re: Dating the Pavia tarocchi appropriati poem (a.k.a. the "Susio" poem)
Posted: 01 Jun 2025, 00:41
Nathaniel wrote,
The Vieville Hanged Man is linked to that of the Cary Sheet by the odd feather-like fingers extending below his two shoulders. There is no indication that the Cary Sheet figure is upside down. Also, if you look on the 3 of Cups, there are plenty of reversals of letters; there are also reversals of the scenes on many trumps. Other mistakes are possible, too, such as an apprentice who put on the numbers mistaking the orientation of the figure.
Added later, for clarification: Otherwise, your points seem good. Even the Hanged Man is connected to Piedmont via the Cary Sheet, if it can be accepted that it reflects how the tarot would have looked in Piedmont.
Another connection between Vieville and the Cary Sheet is the Sun card, with its banner (replacing what I suspect is a hobby-horse in the Cary Sheet with a real horse).
Also, the Tower card, with its cow vs. sheep and possible tree vs. full tree.
We don't see much of the Cary Sheet's Fool. However, Piscina's description of the Fool fits Piedmont's and Vieville's, in that he looks behind himself rather than forward as in the Tarot de Marseille.
Yet the Vieville Devil, Star, and Moon are more reminiscent of Florence or Bologna - nothing in common with the Cary Sheet, but go more with the "equal papi" and World/Angel order.
On Temperance, Vieville's "sol Fama" connects it with Alciato.
What do you make of Piscina's description of the World card? He says that it is the World surrounded by the symbols of the four evangelists. Yet Vieville has an oval wreath, not exactly a World, with a male figure in the middle, I would think Christ, whom Piscina would surely have mentioned. Likewise, if it was a female or androgynous figure in the middle, it could be the anima mundi, but Piscina would surely have exhibited his erudition by saying so, as this detail is in Plato, whom he has already cited for the Devil and the Tower. The only card that fits Piscina's description is the "Prima Causa" of the 2nd version of the "Tarot of Mantegna." It is not impossible that Piscina's could have been similar.
Different previous tarots allow plenty of room for choice as the designer would like, it seems to me, whether by Vieville in Paris or earlier in Piedmont. In that regard, Finale's Hanged Man might (in that regard) have been inspired by Vieville's.
I do not see how the Hanged Man upside down would convey the impression of hanging oneself, because there is no rope around his neck. Instead, it is around his foot, as though he were a balloon that would otherwise float away. Also, Vieville does not say "s'รจ impicato," i.e. hanged himself (Piscina's language), but "soit pendu," is (or be) hanged. I suppose it might be that Piscina was misremembering and confusing two versions of the card, or different orientations of the same card, with the rope and the head on top.- He describes the Hanged Man as having committed suicide by hanging himself. This could be because the card showed the Hanged Man upside down, as in the Vieville deck.
The Vieville Hanged Man is linked to that of the Cary Sheet by the odd feather-like fingers extending below his two shoulders. There is no indication that the Cary Sheet figure is upside down. Also, if you look on the 3 of Cups, there are plenty of reversals of letters; there are also reversals of the scenes on many trumps. Other mistakes are possible, too, such as an apprentice who put on the numbers mistaking the orientation of the figure.
Added later, for clarification: Otherwise, your points seem good. Even the Hanged Man is connected to Piedmont via the Cary Sheet, if it can be accepted that it reflects how the tarot would have looked in Piedmont.
Another connection between Vieville and the Cary Sheet is the Sun card, with its banner (replacing what I suspect is a hobby-horse in the Cary Sheet with a real horse).
Also, the Tower card, with its cow vs. sheep and possible tree vs. full tree.
We don't see much of the Cary Sheet's Fool. However, Piscina's description of the Fool fits Piedmont's and Vieville's, in that he looks behind himself rather than forward as in the Tarot de Marseille.
Yet the Vieville Devil, Star, and Moon are more reminiscent of Florence or Bologna - nothing in common with the Cary Sheet, but go more with the "equal papi" and World/Angel order.
On Temperance, Vieville's "sol Fama" connects it with Alciato.
What do you make of Piscina's description of the World card? He says that it is the World surrounded by the symbols of the four evangelists. Yet Vieville has an oval wreath, not exactly a World, with a male figure in the middle, I would think Christ, whom Piscina would surely have mentioned. Likewise, if it was a female or androgynous figure in the middle, it could be the anima mundi, but Piscina would surely have exhibited his erudition by saying so, as this detail is in Plato, whom he has already cited for the Devil and the Tower. The only card that fits Piscina's description is the "Prima Causa" of the 2nd version of the "Tarot of Mantegna." It is not impossible that Piscina's could have been similar.
Different previous tarots allow plenty of room for choice as the designer would like, it seems to me, whether by Vieville in Paris or earlier in Piedmont. In that regard, Finale's Hanged Man might (in that regard) have been inspired by Vieville's.