Here is some more information about the five cards reproduced in Il Castello dei Tarocchi. In square brackets, the combination of two dice appearing on the card:Huck wrote: I hesitate to scan the pictures, as they're actually one of the few really new things in the "Castello dei Tarocchi", and such books actually need some buyers.
... the sun and moon combination is the most nice picture.
Another picture shows "the" council ... it's more than once used in the book.
Another shows emperor Maximilian.
Another shows an evangelist, Lucas with a bull.
Another a scene with Jesus: "Gesu somministra l'eucaristia al prete Gianni"
All in the general style of the chronica, so not especially remarkable.
Maximilian isn't emperor at the production time of the book ...
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... &seite=589
The card has the same
"Linea imperator Maximilianus"
at the top, then added the dice at the left and a "Vince due." or "Vince dae." at the bottom
... well, no imformation about the complete deck and the rest of the cards, only the information, that at least some further cards exist for the moment. But we have a sort of promise, that we will get scans.
Indeed, it's a fine discovery in itself.marco wrote:Pen's discovery of the connection between Etteilla III and this book is really great! I think it would make an excellent subject for an IPCS paper
Hm, it's not clear, what you mean. Does Berti say, that the Goldschmidt cards are made from (earlier) woodcuts? Or does he know woodcuts, which meet the motifs (earlier or later woodcuts)? Or are the Goldschmidt cards painted on woodcut on paper?The cards are based on woodcuts from the Chronicles, but they have been beautifully enriched with painted decorations and gilding. This technical mix is somehow similar to the Goldschmidt Tarot (according to Berti, "Storia dei Tarocchi", those gilded cards are also based on woodcuts), but in this "Chronicle Tarot" the background is not gilded: gold is used to highlight details, such as the halos, crowns etc.
"Vinci due" (wins twice) might relate to a game rule. Perhaps the deck was made during the begin of Maximilians reign (maybe 1493-1497), perhaps this double winning function for this card was intended to honor him. Bianca Maria's court was at the begin full of Italians, later (around 1500-1501) Maximilian drastically minimized her costs (and already before her position was endangered). From this situation an Italian "Vinci due" must not surprise. Generally Italy was a big market for the Schedel'sche Weltchronik. As I already said, the playing card deck might have served as an additional advertisement to sell the book.Knowing nothing of dice games, I am puzzled by a few things:
* What was the use of the dice on the trumps? Were the results of two dice a completely ordered set that could be used to determine which trump was going to win on another trump in a standard tarot game?
* Connected to the previous question: was this deck used to play "standard tarot" or should we think that it was used to play dice games using cards instead of dice?
* Why is "Vince due" (wins two) written in Italian?
* What could possibly be the meaning of this statement?
... for instance one game might have had some parallels to chess. In the description of the cards reproduced in his book, Berti writes they are "hand-painted xylography" (xilografia dipinta a mano). From the images, it is clear that the background is gilded. The analogy I see with the Nuremberg Chronicle deck is the presence of woodcut + hand-painting + gilding.Huck wrote: Hm, it's not clear, what you mean. Does Berti say, that the Goldschmidt cards are made from (earlier) woodcuts? Or does he know woodcuts, which meet the motifs (earlier or later woodcuts)? Or are the Goldschmidt cards painted on woodcut on paper?
). His comparisons of the illos in the book, with the illos in the Chronicle are a big help to me and everyone else who cannot yet acquire a copy of the "Il Castello dei Tarocchi".His post and one lengthier that follows, finds a very suggestive link between quite a few cards of the Etteilla III deck and the Nuremberg Chronicle. This was followed up on by Ross G. R. CaldwellThanks Huck, that's helpful. I wondered whether Etteilla had copied the images from the Liber Chronicarum or from the deck of cards. Are there only five cards in existence?
is going to fuel a quantum leap in scholarship, knowledge, and the 21st Centuries ongoing worldwide cultural inflorescence, that will still look remarkable a thousand years from now (If we don't all blow each other to hell at the same time, of course:(It is this idea that originally got me excited. That is real Tarot news. I hope Il Castello dei Tarocchi comes out in english so I can read all about it ! Right now, since I've been dabbling in various Renaissance studies for the last 5 years, I would love to learn Latin or Italian. But I will never have that time. I am dependent on translations, and always will be, I think.It's already clear in the article, that all 5 pictures are from the Liber Chronicarum
I have edited the title of the thread according to your suggestion.hoo wrote: (For the purposes of website SEO, in the rest of this post I will refer to it as the Nuremberg Chronicle, since that is the title people outside of German or Latin speaking areas of the western world usually use when searching for it, and that title hasn't been used on this forum yet.)
Penelope's discovery is remarkable indeed. I think the visual parallel definitely proves that the Chronicle is the source of some Etteilla III Cards. Since the Chronicle is so ancient, I think it is likely that the influence was an indirect one, possibly through some art book about medieval woodcuts. Maybe Ross will find out more about thishoo wrote: [Pen's] post and one lengthier that follows, finds a very suggestive link between quite a few cards of the Etteilla III deck and the Nuremberg Chronicle. This was followed up on by Ross G. R. Caldwell
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=90#p9491
immediately after, in Huck's thread. Then continued here in this thread, where Huck himself posted some very very enlightening illos documenting Pen's list of correspondences -
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=638#p9494
I think this is really important. Though the Etteilla III is from the mid-19th Century, it is still a remarkable discovery. I hardly ever read any documentation on the sources for the art in Tarot cards. Here we have at least 2 decks of cards, one from late 15th-early 16th Century, the other from the 19th, whose 'trumps' have striking ( and I mean striking!) similarities to the illustrations of one of the most famous books in the world.
I noticed that the Chronicle presents the same kind of encyclopedic universal history that we see in the Sola Busca deck. And that Roman consuls are presented with a visual pattern that also occurs in the Sola Busca deck. I think it is unlikely that there is an influence of this particular universal history on the Sola Busca deck, but it is likely that some similar text was of inspiration for SB. This hypothesis is weak and vague: nothing to do with the striking evidence of the "new" Castello dei Tarocchi deck and Pen's discovery about Etteilla IIIhoo wrote: Now Marco, in this thread, has made statements that he finds some sort of similarity with the Nuremberg Chronicle and the Sola Busca. This third claim is not yet clear, to me, at least.
) might indicate that the deck had been used as source material for Etteilla 111. If this were the case, we'd have some idea what the missing cards possibly looked like. ...hoo wrote:Thanx Huck, for confirming -It is this idea that originally got me excited. That is real Tarot news.It's already clear in the article, that all 5 pictures are from the Liber Chronicarum
... nice, that you enjoy the News ... ... I'm interested, what you say, when you meet the 5x14-theory ... well, it has already some proud age, but it's often new to somebody ... Reading the German text, I would say, that you're right with this. "Wie sanctus Thomas der apostel ierlich in der statt hulna in India gelegen dem volck das allerheilligst sakrament gebe"marco wrote:So, I think the image represents St. Thomas the Apostle.
