Iolon wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 07:25
Huck wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 11:56
The Charles VI fragment consists of 16 trumps and 1 court card. It is possible to claim, that these 16 cards were sold as a complete trump set together with one court card to give an example, how the rest might liook like. The deck was found in France, not in Italy, so a French visitor might have had the interest to have such trump set.
In 2007 the idea appeared, that the Charles VI was made in Florence and not in Ferrara, as otherwise claimed. At this time researcher interest to prove something about Tarot was mainly focussed on Miland Ferrara, and not much was known about Florence. Only Franco Pratesi had the courage to announce, that Florence with its many artists was the better place to find something about the Trionfi card development.
Hi Huck, You have some great theories, but this one simply makes non sense to me. Yes, for me this Charles VI trump set was probably made to give an example of the structure of a the 22 trumps. ....
About your website, ....
https://tarotwheel.net/structure/the%20 ... wheel.html
which mentions the Sermones de Ludo Cum Aliis ...
about which once we collected this personal information from Ron Decker ...
A personal letter to Ron Decker, between 1991 and 2001 the curator United States Playing Card Company, which owns the manuscript, reached the following information:
"The manuscript pages have many different watermarks. All of them date from around 1500 and come from places near Ferrara. The order of the Tarot trumps, as given in the manuscript, is the Ferrarese order. The author was definitely a monk. One of the sermons is about the stigmata of St. Francis, so I think it likely that the monk was a Franciscan. I do not know on what basis others have declared the author to have been a Dominican." (Ronald Decker)
Further we have this info in "Collection Franciscans" ...
3. Giacomo (James) della Marche (1391 – November 28, 1476)
Tierry Depaulis: "Early Italian Lists of Trumps" in The Playing Card, 36, 1 (July-Sept 2007), pp. 39-50.
Depaulis discusses a text of Giacomo and the "Sermones de Ludo cum aliis" on pp. 39-41, and presents the card texts of both on pp. 48-50 (no translation). Giacomo's text is partly identical to the "Sermones de Ludo cum aliis"
. Depaulis dates this earlier version (which does not include a reference to Trionfi cards
) to "1460".
A major argument, why researchers decided to prefer to see the Charles VI deck as a Florentine production and not a Ferrarese, was the octagonal halo on the four virtues at the cards Temperantia, Fortitudo, Iustitia and Prudentia alias "World". The discussion happened in 2007 in Tarotforum.net in the Researcher forum and Huck didn't gave the Initiative to it, the merit goes to others for instance Ross and Michael J. Hurst.
I think, it started somewhere, I think here ...
https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.p ... 572&page=2
... and was proceeded in the Christina Fiorini thread.
... and possibly expanded to other themes. It's a long story. In 2007 this forum didn't exist, it started in 2008.
Hi Huck, You have some great theories, but this one simply makes non sense to me.
... :-) ... no problem, I carry such reactions with patience. Ross and Michael J. Hurst also didn't understand it, you're in good company.
The 5x14-theory also needed 14 years, before there was somebody else, who understood it.
A Strambotti poem should be mentioned in the context of the Sermones de Ludo Cum Aliis.
quoted from an earlier article
Strambotti de triumphi
Miracomãdo aquel angelo pio,
al mõdo al sole alla luna & lostello
alla saetta & aquel diauol rio
la morte el traditore el vechiarello
la rota el caro & guistitia di dio
forteza & temperanza & amor bello
al Papa Imperatore & Imperatrice
al bagatello al matto più felice.
Some analyses lead to this list
21-20 angelo ----- Minchiate: 40 Angel
20-19 mõdo ------ Minchiate: 39 Mondo-World
19-18 sole ------- Minchiate: 38 Sun
18-17 luna ------- Minchiate: 37 Moon
17-16 lostello --- Minchiate: 36 Star
16-15 saetta ---- Minchiate: 15 Tower
15-14 diauol ----- Minchiate: 14 Devil
14-13 morte ----- Minchiate: 13 Death
13-12 traditore -- Minchiate: 12 Hanging Man
12-11 vechiarello Minchiate: 11 Hermit, old man
11-10 rota ------- Minchiate: 10 Wheel
10-9 caro -------- Minchiate: 9 Chariot
9-8 guistitia ------ Minchiate: 8 Justice
8-7 forteza ------- Minchiate: 7 Strength
7-6 temperanza -- Minchiate: 6 Temperance
6-5 amor ---------- Minchiate: 5 Love
5-4 Papa ---------- Minchiate: 4 Eastern Emperor (special figure, NOT POPE)
4-3 Imperatore -- Minchiate: 3 Western Emperor (special figure, NOT EMPEROR)
3-2 Imperiatrice - Minchiate: 2 Grand duke (special figure, NOT EMPRESS)
----- PAPESSA MISSING IN BOTH, STRAMBOTTO and MINCHIATE
1-1 bagatello ---- Minchiate: 1 Magician
0-0 matto -------- Minchiate: 0 Fool
Here we make the observation, that the Strambotti poem likely referred to a trump list known in Florence or Tuscany, cause the similarities to Minchiate are relative strong.
Here we see, that there were once only 21 special cards (possibly always in Florence, as long as Florence produced Tarot decks. Since c. 1630 Florence produced only Germini or Michiate decks, as far I know it.) Possibly the Strambotti poem belongs to Florence. However, Depaulis gives as printing locations mainly Rome and once Verona.
Depaulis in 2007 noted 4 different sources for this Strambotti poem with slight variations in the text. The probably oldest version is given above and he dated it to "around 1500", so it is not sure, if the Strambotti poem or the Sermones de Ludo Cum Aliis is older.
For the dating "around 1500" one should consider, that Florence had a very difficult time with Savonarola and playing cards in 1497/1498 (Savanorola burnt playing cards 1497 and was himself burnt in 1498, and also there were difficulties with remaining Savanoralists in Florence a longer time. And the playing card lover Ercole (as you have described him) was in late years a friend of Savonarola and had also a lot of other religious ambitions.
I remember, that Ross occasionally attempted an earlier dating "c 1480" for the Strambotti poem, but I don't know, what developed meanwhile with this approach.