hello all,

As I don't know where to put this information, I lay it here:

A wonderfull Renault Full deck is on auction on E Bay France (finishing on 09th october coming).

Just have a look on it just for your eyes pleasure because it is really a nice deck with all his colors preserved as far I can see.
http://cgi.ebay.fr/RARE-ET-EXCEPTIONNEL ... 286.c0.m14

EBay number is: 260294949275

Ah si j'étais riche (Old song ) !!!

Yves Le Marseillais

Hello Yves...
Very interesting deck it is.
What is year is dated the Renault deck ?
Is there on the web some information about it ?

Au revoir ...

EUGIM wrote:Hello Yves...
Very interesting deck it is.
What is year is dated the Renault deck ?
Is there on the web some information about it ?

Au revoir ...

Hello Miguel and all,

.
Jerger was active from 1800 to 1825 and build up initial moulds.
Renault is first successor of Jean Jerger. He got Jerger wood moulds and was in activity from 1825 up to 1850
He was based in Besancon/ France like Jerger.
After Renault, Kirchner got this moulds and acted from 1850 to 1860.
Finaly Blanche succeded to Kirchner from 1860 to 1880

I think that Camoin web site shows some Renault cards
On my side I have pictures of it I took in a Paris Museum.

Salute

Yves

After Blanche ... game is over and this is endo of the story

-Merci Yves !

1-Having in mind the date of the deck you mentioned I just think is very interesting the XIII card.
The figure is going towards to the left instead to the right

I want to mean:
1-Do you know another deck around the time this deck was done that has the same pattern ?
2-This Renault XIII card does not follow the earlier decks pattern ?
As Jean Noblet,the Tarot de Paris or François Heri ?
But not Jean Dodal having in mind that is closer in terms of time with Noblet.
So how understand this "jump" of pattern in time ?
3-Another "irrelevant" detail to discuss ? / Don t mind ?
So why this deck at the time was done did not follow its time iconography pattern ?

-There is also the example of XX card where the central figure is not pale blue coloured as usual.
It is skin-pale brown coloured as Noblet is.

Hello Miguel,

First:
I made a MISTAKE: This deck is a Blanche deck: He succed to Kircher who already succed to Renault who succed to ...Jerger Ouf!!!
Sold for 1240 €uros damn it !! I wish I would be rich enough to get it. Next life may be 8-)

Second:
Many decks have XIII (Deat/La Mort) card looking left side. May be 40 to 50 % of Historical decks.

Third:
About card colors variations like XX Jugement, a lot of Historical decks have small or big colors variations.
Why ? Because color symbolism evoluted accross ages, probably many cardmakers forgot color symbolism, and/or they may be did not paid anymore attention to Tradition, prefering choosing colors regarding commercial impact.

Some modern tarot decks makers also, either use "new" colors (i.e purple/violet) for their modern "restoration"; or worst change location of colors by restoring old Historical decks.

Fourth: I am convinced that real Tarot tradition pattern was partly lost in time and space and real details of cards are in many different decks REGARDLESS of their location in time AND space.
Later (in due time sorry) I will explain this important point.

Salute

Yves

Oh mon chérie ami !

1-That this suppose that there is no rules about iconography patterns in terms of place and time ?
Must this is a fact a prove of no logical historical pattern sequence ?
May be I ahead must consider any parameter ?

* I ve been crushing my head for nothing all this years mon best Marseilles fontaine de renseignement ?

2-You said: " Many decks have XIII (Deat/La Mort) card looking left side. May be 40 to 50 % of Historical decks."
Please tell me because you have the "Secret Tarot de Marseille Archive " so ask to you which decks have the XIII going towards to the left between 1650 and 1760 (So from Noblet to Conver )

3-About colour at XX:
Again,any historical sequence pattern to follow ?
All do the same work / meaning ?

EUGIM wrote:Oh mon chérie ami !

1-That this suppose that there is no rules about iconography patterns in terms of place and time ?
Must this is a fact a prove of no logical historical pattern sequence ?
May be I ahead must consider any parameter ?

* I ve been crushing my head for nothing all this years mon best Marseilles fontaine de renseignement ?

2-You said: " Many decks have XIII (Deat/La Mort) card looking left side. May be 40 to 50 % of Historical decks."
Please tell me because you have the "Secret Tarot de Marseille Archive " so ask to you which decks have the XIII going towards to the left between 1650 and 1760 (So from Noblet to Conver )

3-About colour at XX:
Again,any historical sequence pattern to follow ?
All do the same work / meaning ?

Hello again

About death LEFT SIDED

ROCHUS II SCHAER 1783 (ACTED FROM 1744-1813)
JACQUES ROCHIAS 1782 (ACTED FROM 1753-1823)
JOSEPH HENRI ROCHIAS 1816 (ACTED FROM 1814-1851)
JOHANNES I MULLER 1840 (ACTED FROM 1813-1873)
ORFEO CIRCA 1700 (ITALIAN DECK AND PATTERN)
ANGELO DALLA CASA CIRCA 1790 (ITALIAN DECK FROM BOLOGNA)
FAUSTINO SOLESIO FIRST QUARTER OF 19TH CENTURY (ITALIAN DECK/GENOVA)
FRATELLI SOLESI FIRST HALF OF 19TH CENTURY (ITALIAN DECK/GENOVA)
GIUSEPPE SIRONI CIRCA 1870 (MILAN/ITALY)
EDOARDO DOTI CIRCA 1870 MILAN/ITALY
JEAN BAPTISTE II BENOIS END 18TH CENTURY (STRASBOURG/FRANCE)
JEAN JERGER 1808 BESANCON / FRANCE
RENAULT
HANS BUOLMANN SECOND HALF 18TH CENTURY


ORFEO AND HANS BUOLMANN COVERS YOUR PERIOD REQUESTED 1650 TO 1760 BUT I HAVE OTHER DECKS TO CHECKS.

About logic and sequence pattern:
There is a logic and a pattern for sure.
NOBODY FOUND IT UP TO....

Same answer about colors:
There is also a true pattern, I think.

A suivre. To be continued... :o

Yves

Yves:
The earliest example you gave here is around or after Conver (JACQUES ROCHIAS 1782 (ACTED FROM 1753-1823) ),so which example one could have before ?

* What about this deck ? "ORFEO CIRCA 1700 (ITALIAN DECK AND PATTERN)
Which is it ?