Re: The Wheel of Fortune

welcome, nanmingyu
nanmingyu wrote: 22 Nov 2023, 04:00 i have a thoughts,maybe the CY tarrochi never have “The Wheel of Fortune”,because “the world” was fortune,we can see the《Le Roman de la Rose》MS Douce 195 [43]r,in this the fortune Sitting on a golden rainbow,Wearing a crown, holding a scepter in the right hand,my English was so bad so i cant to explain why it wasfortune ,but have a paper can explain it,[1]谢涛.上帝、永恒与命运的“三位一体”:对《玫瑰传奇》道斯195号抄本“命运之轮”图式的解读[J].世界美术,2023,(03):
Image ... 926dd56df/

the paper mean, in 《Le Roman de la Rose》“the fortune” was the “Eternity”,the god、eternity、fortune,is new“Trinity”,
so, if The CY tarrochi have “The Wheel of Fortune”,it will conflict with the theme of“the world” : a deck of card have two fortune.
the wheel of fortune connect triumph of fama and triumph of time ,So it may be never exist in CY tarrochi,same with “the tower” and “the devil”.
there is an older theory, that the CY (Cary-Yale) had in its original form a 5x16-structure (= 80 cards inclusive 16 special cards ).
The basic idea is, that the CY possibly was related to chess.

It was also related to another theory, that the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi (= PMB) in its original form had a 5x14-structure (=70 cards inclusive 14 special cards ).[Added much time later: I had a typo error at this place and wrote here "16" instead of "14".]
PMB was recognized as painted by two different painters and there was some agreement, that the second painter made 6 of the trumps a considerable time later.

Another deck with 5 suits (5x13) was mentioned by John of Rheinfelden in the year 1377. John mentioned totally 6 types of decks:
3 decks with 4x13 and with variants in the court cards.
One deck with 6 suits (6x13).
A deck with 4x15 cards = 60 cards) and 5 court cards for each suit. This deck was the focus of the engagement of JvR. It has some similarity to the socalled Michelino deck (also Martiano-da-Tortona deck), which is discussed here very often.

Good luck.
Last edited by Huck on 06 Jan 2024, 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

Re: The Wheel of Fortune

nanmingyu wrote: 06 Jan 2024, 03:35 Yes I have read these articles of yours and I very agree with them.and...old theory?now have another mainstream theory?or may be I understood it wrong...sorry..
Thank you for your attention and your agreement. "Old theory" means, that these articles were published 2003/2004, and the theories as such have even a longer age. Well, there were some improvements in the meantime, but my opinion in specific details didn't change.

In 2003/2004 there were much less written documents about Trionfi cards available than we have nowadays. Perhaps it were 35 from the period 1442-1465, nowadays it are c210 between 1440-1465, mostly thanks to the work of Franco Pratesi and Arnold Esch in the period 2011-2013. Nowadays we know for sure, that there was a broad stream of Trionfi card productions since 1450, something, which we couldn't foresee in 2003-2004.

If you like, we can talk about it. But I would suggest the thread "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation part II" .....
.... if you don't mind.