Allo Yves !!!

1-Well nice to meet you again as allways bon ami ...
2-With regard to your "National Geographic" discovery I mean that you MUST open a new thread by your own right.
3-Of course I m agree Conver is a great deck and also somewhat "underestimated" and I tell to you just as a child that I don t know why bon ami...
4-Carlos Gardel really Charles Gardes born in France and I will send to you a You Tube attachment by e mail,so you will see his amazing voice(Caruso loved it ).Tango was deep infused by French culture,and here we have a very strong community.
5-With regard to Salma Hayek....
Weeeelllll !!! / Those mere can fill the entirely world with sweet honey I think (And expect... )
6-Well I just done the work and photocopied the entirely deck of ours bon ami Jean Dodal and this weekend my scissor will have too much work...
6-XXI card:I forgot mentioned the wand that the Madam has in his left hand. / I don think that wouldn t be need to post it here..
I mean same "drawn" engrave line,so same attitude,same red "scarf ? " ...
7-And finally I send to you an example as how you Frenchmen did these MARVELLOUS Art work ...
Here we see VIIII and as Italians did an hourglass you done a lantern. /BW more to see who is coming than to see what is around I think

Ps/ If life give to me an opportunity to meet you of course my first phrase will be this.. (But I will not to fired you of course)

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Zduq4YGmiUw

Eugim

Yves ...
And also that (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdiVsa5VBSs )

1-Chosson / Conver ,common friend... -Just see the right arm of both,if I m not wrong they are closest !
2-Again just see the legs on XVI card please.The same angle position et ceterea...

16772 ?

Or 1872 ?

3-My Bon Ami I don t need to send to you the 9 de COUPEE ... / I mean as an example ...
4-You,you ve got a gift my friend...

Eugim.

Yves...
I allways been seriously thinking about some ideas that were spining in my head every time I want to fit a somewhat conceptual approach to Tarot de Marseilles.

-First let me point some historical facts.
1-Undoubtedly was a game,first played by the aristocrat class,at courts of Europe.
Then begin to play by the rest,so the working class who must be say were illiterate.
2-As you usually right said many times were a business matter,of the decks owner and engravers.
3- Here I want to remark that once Tarot arrived at La France in 1499,french engravers reworked it entirely.
The named and numbered the cards,and not less redesigned all the iconography (Its a fact )

Thus...
1-I told above that the working class were illiterate,so they need cards numbered and named.
2-They need a familiar own iconography so able to recognize. / So that s why was it redisigned,reworked I think.
3-The rules of the game must been "clear" so to unsure basic patterns to play the game.

So... / Questions till yet my friend ...
1-Could be the minimal possibility that after the work of redisigned iconography was done,hidden meanings which could be trace on French folklore could COEXISTS with the undoubtedly game purpose ? /I mean...
Romanesque and Gothic art took place at France between X century too XVI at France specifically,so I think surely engravers knew that and as it s usual in Art they were "infused " with theirs patterns.
That rank of time cover the previous time when the very earliest Tarot de Marseilles were created.
Romanesque art specifically was too influenced by Celtic art,thus a whole ancestral french culture could be get involved.
So that could get us a field to search I think ...
2-That engravers or best who concieved strictly the imagery of Tarot de Marseilles,found the way to fill them also with ancestral French beliefs,without lost the sense of a recognizable card .
(BTW / I m surprised that ROM didn t take "The torch" of this thread yet... )
3-And here I "Drop the BOMB"...
Which degree of intention so deliberated,existed in the engraver or the imagery creator of the deck,with regard to details ???
-Are there a place for negligence ? / May be the same if the flames of the Tower at LA MAISON DIEV are coming out toward the Sun or from the Sun ? -Could be that understand it as the same meaning ? / So why the seven of Coupee is unnumbered in Jean Dodal deck ?
-One can think that for the illiterate player that isn t important of course...
But as he can t read he can recognize these details I think or best feel,so after all this card depict a 7 de coupee.// But isn t it odd after all ?
So could be a balance between intention and the purpose to make a deck just to play a game ?
BTW,I m closer and closer to Dodal because he fit and fill to me (of course) the many "feelings" about cards meanings.
So tell me you and JMD if he is barely near...
Why if Dodal "planned" to do a deck "Par le Strange" so I think a deck enough to understand by foreign people,he numbered XII as IIX,or why best seven de Coupee is unnumbered ?

Here i copy a paragraph of the novel "Scandal in Bohemia of Arthur Conan Doyle (Yes,again../ Don t fire me brothers once more ... ) that show best my approach to Tarot de Marseilles,and that is just go from the iconographic evidence to elsewhere/So where ours deep feelings best suggest to US.

-Watson:"This is indeed a mystery," I remarked. "What do you imagine that it means?"

-Sherlock Holmes: "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.

Au revoir ...

Eugim

1-Another card that allways left me thinking was XX.
We have a pair of a male and a female with clearly a flesh colour and an a figure with a pale blue body emerging from the sepulchre.
2-So we have two figures (duality ) alive and other resurrected.
As one can see at IEAN DODAL deck is a religious...
3-So here I ask my friends,its an IVGEMENT to the Roman Church here as depiction ?

Eugim

I ve tried allways to live aside my own beliefs when I m just trying to analyze the cards themselves.
Because I think is the best way to attempt to find a good approach,a good balance between historical iconography historical facts and the possible reasons of the the creators of that imagery.
1-I allways discussed friendy with JMD if there were a limit zone,a border zone where the imagery of Tarot de Marseilles merely overlapped with any other hidden meaning,but without any reason,or not...
2-Okay I allways supposed that both could be coexist. / Just take the reworked iconography done after the deck arrived to France by contrast to the Italians ancestors.
3-Nothing than less at first: Frenchmen named and numbered the cards.It s that "little" or few they done ?
4-See for example LE MAT unnumbered but also depend on which deck we see,he has or hasn t also an space to do it,so to place it.
Merely a simplification because don t mind the difference ? /Merely a negligence ?
5-I allways want to keep strongly in mind that as in any art work we are trying to understand from here so from ours time,they or his time.his culture environment.
For me is barely impossible,or best a carefully attempt just to do it.
Not less that what we or I am trying to do here my friends...

Eugim

On another thread I tried to explain the link between the Sun as God and the Matter as the Devil or by extension the Universe.
The Universe as God s creation and also his body where we live as particles of it so of Him.
Lucifer (So not Satan ) is a depiction of the Soul of the Mankind which "felt" into the matter and has the work to return to God as Spirit leaving aside the matter,but also as agents which conscious or not enlighten the matter as particle of God Spirit we are.
The purpose is the human being by using the matter for create a body "experience" it so enlighten it.
God purpose is that the whole Universe returned to him experienced,and we are the agents for this work.

1-Aside the close link between the VALET DE DENIERS of Chosson and Conver,I want to remark the two coin,so one in his hand so place at an sky level and the other buried.
2-I see the DENIERS as a God depiction in a sense of Spirit and his close depiction is the Sun
3-So here I tie what above said. /So the spirit felt on the earth so matter and the coin in his hand depict the Spirit returned to his creator
4-On LE SOLEIL card we see a twin meetting each other,and see how the left one seems to be somewhat "weaking up" by contrast to the one of the right.
So thats for me the human being "carry on " the transmutaed matter returning to God (Sun),with the help of the Soul,the divine agent "Lucifer".
See also the wall with the same red and yellow colours as the Sun.
This is the barrier between the Spiritual World and the Material one.
But this wall is too low may be to indicate that God is allways with us,and he is omnipresent,and also we never be noticed of that (as usual ).
Thedrpos falling as a Mana cover us and the entirely Universe so his body (where are we at last )
5-The twins have a red ring at theirs neck,exactly at the place of the throat,so where we as God say the "Word" as creators.
But also the twins have a green underwear exactly where the sexual point it s placed ( As a body/matter co-creator with God ).Tis green colour is the same as the lowest row of the wall (so closest to the earth/matter.
That s drives me to the red points or spots what has Death on the "sacred" vertebra (See you my friend ...) and the throat. ( As Dodal )
6-LE BATELVR and the figure on XXI (For me Christ) has a wand both on his left hand.
So here I see the beginning and the end of the sustain thesis of what I said.
7-Finally DENIERS are unnamed and unnumbered as the Aces of the four pips..
Curiously not ?

Eugim

With regard to the process I above mentioned,there I said that XV its for me a depiction of the Matter.

1-There we have also a twin.in some decks as male and female,but after all the depiction of the duality inherent to the matter itself and of course in us.
They re different to the other twin at XVIIII that I described the Soul meeting the matter transmutated (waking up form a long dream )
2-Here at XV card the twin are tied to the Devil,and also the Devil has a torch on his left hand as show also Conver (another coincidence).
For example Noblet and Dodal show more a sceptre,as it s reign over the underworld.So different as L EMPEREVR who reigns in this world and LE PAPE who reigns over the spiritual one.(As LE BATELEVR and the figure at XXI both has a wand /The beginning and the end of the sequence btw ).
This torch depict the light hidden in the Matter,so showing that the Matter is Divine as a God creation after all.
This afterglow of the matter is which must evolve to reach his divine origin.And this is for me the resurrection of the Matter on the Final Judgement.
3-Details aside all the decks show the duality of the Devil depicted on a gender sense,and on some decks the twins also are in the same way.(Noblet and Dodal but not Chosson and Conver,yes again...)
4-There is another parallel between the twins as seen on XV and XVIIII.
XV: Both tied with a cord around theirs neck and this cord tied to the pedestal of the Devil.
This cord is yellow as is the wings and the odd helmet of the Devil.And also they have a somewhat red headband.
But at XVIIII they are free from the Matter so from the Devil and they have found God so the Sun.
They are also blessed with God influence as show the drops falling.The sky is clear and the figure of the right is happy and hurry goes to meet his lost brother.
By contrast the environment of the XV card is sinister (so the left hand of the Devil),gloomy,full of anguish so diabolic after all.
XVIIII:Here both have instead a cord around theirs necks,a red ring on theirs neck,but as I said they are free form the Matter.
They don t deny the Matter as they have bodies carnal coloured as in XV,but they enlightened them.
They exhumed the Coin of the Valet de Deniers from the ground so from the Matter and raised to the sky so to the Sun (It s original source )
It s curious at less,that only the DENIERS are unnumbered as the Aces.And also that the red colour is widely present in overall the majors and minors.Red its for me the colour of the Spirit.
5-So finally this show the till now endless fight between Lucifer (the Soul incarnated ) and Satan (The Devil ).
And also I have allways present the beginning of all this process.At V card there is also a twin and a "third" hand at the right.There is clearly a yellow band in the arm that separate it s from the right monk.That is for me the presence of the Soul and is seems as the Pope is blessing the Soul so not the twin.
His arm,hand,eyes,body position,show that I think.
Why he isn t frankly look at the litle monks ?

Eugim

Forgive me. I think I'm a little lost... What again is the connection between the twins and the dating of the Chosson deck? :?

RaH

Hello RAH...
On the above posts I did several examples to link Chosson and Conver,because for me are too related.
So I don t believe in the 1672 dating of Chosson.
By several examples of the cards crossing both decks and contrasting to others I try to "place" in time Chosson from an iconogrpahic point of view.
So the twins are a just one of many comparisons.
So you know that Ross mentioned the possibility that Chosson deck was made by G. Selon beacuse this engraver was active at the supposed 1672.
Also Dodal hasnt in his 2 de DENIERS a date but it s assumed as a date between 1701-1715 also because he was active at this time.
All the serious web sources are agree of this and whom mentioned that arrived at this conclusion by the iconographic contrast with others decks.
So then comes the topic about Tarot de Marseille 1 and 2 et cetera...
Well that is my attempt and my aproach to this topic.



Eugim

RAH,I forgot to mention that all the meanings explain I did even they are just from my point of view,and aside the thread topic at a first glance,them has I think at the end a relation with it when I did it to compares Chosson with Conver,from an iconographic point to view,so to sustain my belief.

Till the next

Eugim