EUGIM wrote:Robert...
I want to be honest here or elsewhere .

1-Signs,details,numbers,words,places on a deck sequence,need to have an explanation,even if there are there or not.
TEMPERANCE figure has wings,so not Italians decks,I think that must be a reason.

I'd say they may or may not have a meaning, and that if they do, it's certainly in this case significantly less important than the image themselves.
What is clear, at least to me, is that these cardmakers made mistakes all the time. Halos disappear, hands disappear, things are added, things are lost; and most of the time it looks, at worst like sloppiness, and at best as "artistic liscense", to me at least. Rather than looking at a small sample, or one sample, and trying to read a "meaning" into it, I think it better to look at the group on as a whole to get a sense of "intended" meanings. Should I wonder why Dodal doesn't have a crossbeam on Le Pendu? Or should I take a look at the group and then realize that Dodal doesn't have a crossbeam because he added the title on top? I could make up a whole esoteric reason why the beam shouldn't be there and why Dodal secretly knew this, but it seems much less likely than the reasonable explanation that it is missing because he copied a sample that didn't have the title, and when he added the title, he lost the crossbar. I have yet to see any evidence to suggest that the cardmakers were conveying "hidden" or "secret" meanings with these details. I think it much more likely that they were not looking at these cards in that way at all. I realize this is an unpopular view with those who think the "Tarot" or particularly the Tarot de Marseille holds some secret teaching. No one has presented a compelling enough case to lead me to believe this. I think the mysteries lie rather in the Iconography and order. Why these images? Why 22? Why these orders? Rather than in codes and mysteries dealing with titles, numbers, or penises. ;)

EUGIM wrote:2-So yes I think that about 7 de COUPEE unnumbered must be two reason:
a- I simple negligence
b- A hidden meaning

eugim

I vote "a", or some other practical reason yet to occur to us.

1-I mentioned TEMPERANCE just for this.
I mean looks as angel,has wings as an angel,thus very different from the Italians decks.
The point is why is as it is ?
Frenchmen reworked the deck entirely since 1499.
So there were a reason within,so the undobteadly purpose to be a card game could also I think coexist with a menaning related to the pattern of the image.
2-Of course surely could was a simple negligence...

eugim

EUGIM wrote:1-I mentioned TEMPERANCE just for this.
I mean looks as angel,has wings as an angel,thus very different from the Italians decks.
The point is why is as it is ?
Frenchmen reworked the deck entirely since 1499.
So there were a reason within,so the undobteadly purpose to be a card game could also I think coexist with a menaning related to the pattern of the image.
2-Of course surely could was a simple negligence...

eugim

You're right about Temperance taking on the wings for the Tarot de Marseille. Michael Hurst makes a big point of this. I believe his point is that this is a feature that makes the Tarot de Marseille order very interesting with the placement of the card "after death".

As far as I know, there is no other example of temperance with wings, especially when taken as a group with the other virtues without wings.

An accident of negligence, I actually believe it is possible. There are several cards in the Tarot de Marseille that *almost* have wings as well such as the Empress for example, and Justice. I wonder if the "wings" is a corruption of a throne?

Payen Empress:


Payen Justice:

The two examples you gave to us just for me shows clearly that those aren t wings but thrown.
If they are must one see both as clearly as the wings of XIIII card on the same deck...

eugim

That's not my point. I'm in no way saying that these are wings, I am saying that these are throne. I am suggesting that, to my eyes, these thrones look very wing-like, I can imagine how, over years of time, a throne on Temperance could turn into wings. I am not suggesting that the samples I show are wings.

Okay Bob,thus my deep apologyze...

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) / Common come down man...
You returned somewhat Robert "Reloaded",it s fine after all...
I m happy for that my friend !

eugim

just as a break my friend...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3-09TttFNJk

eugim

I don t want to go off topic,but see also that 2 and 4 de COUPEE aren t numbered.

- Jean Dodal the worst negligent engraver ...

eugim

With regards to the numbering, and though it is possible to find instances of unusual subtractive forms of 'IIX' referring to eight, the additive form would make this 'obviously' seen as twelve. I do not think there is there any 'hidden' reference, especially given that, as also shown on another thread, the Noblet six Cups also shows this inconsistency without, I perhaps unwisely suspect, no-one suggesting that the numbering shows both four and six!

Hello JMD... (So Hell off here my friend ! )
1-So you,Robert and Monsieur Dodal let me free to place XII card upward,having here that isn t any post where LE PENDV is tied ?

eugim