Reminds me of the Vieville shield on the four of coins:
Re: Arms identification in Visconti-Sforza
22
Re: Arms identification in Visconti-Sforza
23Hello
I am new in this forum. I read some discussions since two years ago but this is the first time that i write here and i dont know how to use exactly. My languaje is spanish and my english is limited. I dont know if this is better using automatic translation or writing with my limited english like i am doing now. The problem with my limited english is that probably i do hortography mistakes and this is a problem for persons that reed this page using automatic translation like i usualy do to read here. Sorry about this introduction. There are lot of interesting details and questions in my mind when i read about tarot. I love this place and i like how you do investigation. I choose now something easy to ask.
Hello iolon, please, i dont understand exactly your frase. In the place #15 in this foro you say:
"Sigismund did not appear on the Visconti Sforza deck but he can be identified on the 1441 Visconti di Modrone deck."
There are two Sigismond or Sigismund in this context: sigismond malatesta and sigismond emperor. I would like to know wich Sigismond ialon think when he write last words.
Modrone Emperor is a young man with beard split in two. Does Ialon say that this man Emperor in Modrone deck is Segismond Emperor? This is a interesting point. I think it is possible becouse of the beard split in two that we look in the old picture with the two segismonds (Huck have put this picture in the foro in the place #14 in this foro).
On the other hand, I see a similarity between the emperor of Visconti Pierpont and Emperor Sigismund of that ancient painting of the two Sigismunds. That's why I don't understand if Iolon thinks that the emperor of Visconti Pierpont is not Emperor Sigismund.
The next time I write I will try to use the citation tool because I have to investigate how it works. Thanks family
I am new in this forum. I read some discussions since two years ago but this is the first time that i write here and i dont know how to use exactly. My languaje is spanish and my english is limited. I dont know if this is better using automatic translation or writing with my limited english like i am doing now. The problem with my limited english is that probably i do hortography mistakes and this is a problem for persons that reed this page using automatic translation like i usualy do to read here. Sorry about this introduction. There are lot of interesting details and questions in my mind when i read about tarot. I love this place and i like how you do investigation. I choose now something easy to ask.
Hello iolon, please, i dont understand exactly your frase. In the place #15 in this foro you say:
"Sigismund did not appear on the Visconti Sforza deck but he can be identified on the 1441 Visconti di Modrone deck."
There are two Sigismond or Sigismund in this context: sigismond malatesta and sigismond emperor. I would like to know wich Sigismond ialon think when he write last words.
Modrone Emperor is a young man with beard split in two. Does Ialon say that this man Emperor in Modrone deck is Segismond Emperor? This is a interesting point. I think it is possible becouse of the beard split in two that we look in the old picture with the two segismonds (Huck have put this picture in the foro in the place #14 in this foro).
On the other hand, I see a similarity between the emperor of Visconti Pierpont and Emperor Sigismund of that ancient painting of the two Sigismunds. That's why I don't understand if Iolon thinks that the emperor of Visconti Pierpont is not Emperor Sigismund.
The next time I write I will try to use the citation tool because I have to investigate how it works. Thanks family
Re: Arms identification in Visconti-Sforza
24hi Magic Moon, ,
it's useful, if one adds a link, which explains, what quote you are referring to. In this case ....
"Sigismund did not appear on the Visconti Sforza deck but he can be identified on the 1441 Visconti di Modrone deck."
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1621&p=24205&hilit ... 441#p24205
I'm not Iolon, but I also think, that both pictures referred to emperor Sigismondo.
Sforza as duke of Milan since 1450 hadn't good relations to the new emperor Friedrich III (Roman King in 1440, Emperor since 1452).
A lot of pictures with emperor Friedrich III without a beard.
https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... sid=mosaic
I saw only one picture with a beard ....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich ... o_002a.jpg
Sforza had better relations to Emperor Sigismund, emperor till 1437 .... crowned in 1433 after a 2 years visit in Italy.
The Emperor Sigismondo had a beard similar to that beard, which is presented on the both Trionfi card emperors
it's useful, if one adds a link, which explains, what quote you are referring to. In this case ....
"Sigismund did not appear on the Visconti Sforza deck but he can be identified on the 1441 Visconti di Modrone deck."
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1621&p=24205&hilit ... 441#p24205
I'm not Iolon, but I also think, that both pictures referred to emperor Sigismondo.
Sforza as duke of Milan since 1450 hadn't good relations to the new emperor Friedrich III (Roman King in 1440, Emperor since 1452).
https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... sid=mosaic
I saw only one picture with a beard ....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich ... o_002a.jpg
Sforza had better relations to Emperor Sigismund, emperor till 1437 .... crowned in 1433 after a 2 years visit in Italy.
The Emperor Sigismondo had a beard similar to that beard, which is presented on the both Trionfi card emperors
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com
Re: Arms identification in Visconti-Sforza
25Hello
Thanks Huck for the explanation about Emperor Sigismund. I am agree with you. I still don't know how to make appointments or how notifications work on this forum so that other members know I wrote something new or to know when someone responds. I am therefore attentive and look at the conversation from time to time.
The issue of the shield on the Ace of Coins and the Pierpont knights is important and there are many doubts to be resolved. Thanks for everyone's reflections. I have been thinking about it and I want to share some reflections to see if we can solve the mystery. I don't have a solution but I have some ideas to add.
Ialon on his website shares the results of a scientific analysis completed in 2022. He says that the gold material of the 14 trumps and in all the court figures is gold mixed (alloy) with silver, while in the six added trumps and in the numeric pip cards the gold material is pure gold. That makes you think something that seems logical to me and I accept, although a different explanation could be put forward. You say that the pip cards were created in the second commission. Therefore, we can assume that the horses were painted around 1451 and that the ace of gold was painted later, around 1465. It would be useful to know if scientific studies have analyzed the material of the three shields (ace and horses) to know if it is gold or silver. Apparently in the photos I see gold on the shield of the horses and silver on the shield of the ace of gold.
Around the shield of the horses I see a silver area. I would like to know if that is silver that has not changed to gold over time. Around that silver area I see another area that is gold.
In some photographs, I see that the Ace of Gold has a purple color around the mysterious shield, although other photographs perhaps do not have that so evident. That purple paint could have been previously painted under the red and silver shield. Another possibility is that the purple paint was on top of the shield and has worn off. I find it strange that there is purple paint and I would like to know if other people see it too and have an opinion on it. I suspect that the purple color is underneath everything. You see it when the gold color of the medallion or coin chips or comes off due to aging but I am not sure, that is, the purple paint could be on top, so that when it comes off you can see the gold color. By the way, I don't see any white color on the mysterious shields, but white light reflectations.
Bologna: https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/lang ... es/#scheda
Milan: https://www.armoriale.it/wiki/Armoriale ... _%28Bon%29
On a page about surnames I see that the surname Bon existed in Bologna before it did in Venice. Also, on the wikipedia page that you shared I see that the Bon shield with silver on the right existed in Venice but also existed in other places such as Milan, although I don't know in which century that happened. We do not know if the coat of arms on these three Pierpont cards is the coat of arms of Bergamo or of a Bon family or of the Toppau duchy, whose relation to Emperor Sigismund seems too indirect.
On the other hand, the symbolism of the clothing on some characters in the deck is by Visconti and Sforza, taking into account that even the Venetian lion on the King of Swords was possibly not chosen as an enemy country but as a symbolism associated with Francesco Sforza who worked as a general in the Venetian army, except for the period between 1452 and 1454 when Venice was Francesco's enemy and it seems an unlikely time to date the first Pierpont commission. By the way, it seems strange to me that it is commonly dated in 1451 or 1452 since 1452 seems unlikely. There are those who date the deck to 1455 and I don't know why they do so but I think that it makes some sense because Venice was no longer an enemy of Milan since the peace of Lodi in 1454. However, I think that 1450 may be a good year to date the first order of the Pierpont.
In short, there is symbolism of the Dukes of Milan in the figures of the deck but there is a mysterious coat of arms in the Ace of Coins and the horses. I think that the symbolism of the Ace of Coins refers to the family that received the deck, while the symbolism of the clothes of the figures is identified with the family that commissioned the creation of the deck. It could be the other way around but I think what I have said is more likely. Therefore, perhaps the Pierpont deck was commissioned by the Visconti Sforza family as a gift for a Bon family from Milan or Venice or for someone from Bergamo, if the coat of arms is not silver but gold. Ialon rejected a hypothesis by Huck suggesting a possible connection between the Pierpont and the deck requested by Malatesta. My proposal is somewhat similar but different. I hope we can be united in finding a solution. Do you think the coat of arms on the Ace of Pentacles can be identified with the family that ordered the deck or with the one that received the deck?
By the way, I find the theory that the coat of arms on the Ace of Pentacles was painted over later unnecessary and unlikely. If the deck had been kept by the Colleoni of Bergamo early on, I think that perhaps they put the Bergamo coat of arms on top of whatever was underneath. I thought that perhaps the Colleoni received the deck when they had a good relationship with the collector Isabella de Este. However, the Pierpont deck reached the Colleoni centuries later and I have the feeling that it is too late to add coats of arms. Perhaps another person from Bergamo added the coat of arms. However, I reject these hypotheses and I think that possibly the Ace of Pentacles has the coat of arms of the family that received the deck as a gift. It would be strange for people to discover that the Visconti Sforza deck was not from the Visconti Sforza but we cannot ignore the importance of the coat of arms represented on the Ace of Pentacles and on the long-suited knights.
By the way, it is true that the coat of arms on the Vieville deck is the same although inverted. Has any scholar said why this coat of arms is used? Is it probably copied from the Pierpont?
I would like to point out other details. Huck, I think you mentioned 26 letters kept at Casa Colleoni. I think there is an error originating from a Kaplan scheme, where it exposes contradictory data. The 26 cards are in Academia Carrara. True? On the other hand, 15 letters are currently from the Colleoni family. There are texts that talk about Casa Colleoni but I believe that those 15 letters are not displayed in a building called Casa Colleoni. I don't think there is a building with that name. Bartolomeo Colleoni built a church or chapel where he is buried but that church is not called Casa Colleoni and I think it has no letters. Those 15 letters are from the private collection of the Colleoni family and I believe they cannot be consulted because they are not exposed to the public. The texts that speak of Casa Colleoni refer to the Colleoni Family. "House" is "family" in that context. Not building. True?
Finally I want to show you an image of the Visconti Sforza type cards preserved in the Fournier museum in Spain since someone from this forum wanted to see the ace of pentacles with the castle. By the way, I get the feeling that the Popess is the same size as the Ace and the two of pentacles. This is strange because Dummett only differentiated the Popess, which I suppose is the only one with a red back but not the only one of a different size. If the Fournier photo (six cards) is correct, it appears that there are cards from more than two decks. What do you think about this? In addition, the frame line has a different color (red) on the two small cards while the others have a blue line.
Fournier: https://museotik.euskadi.eus/coleccion/ ... -ca-64798/#
I can't put here the picture but this is the web. How is possible to put pictures here in the forum? Preferably jniversal sistem to see easy the image with any telephone.
Thanks Huck for the explanation about Emperor Sigismund. I am agree with you. I still don't know how to make appointments or how notifications work on this forum so that other members know I wrote something new or to know when someone responds. I am therefore attentive and look at the conversation from time to time.
The issue of the shield on the Ace of Coins and the Pierpont knights is important and there are many doubts to be resolved. Thanks for everyone's reflections. I have been thinking about it and I want to share some reflections to see if we can solve the mystery. I don't have a solution but I have some ideas to add.
Ialon on his website shares the results of a scientific analysis completed in 2022. He says that the gold material of the 14 trumps and in all the court figures is gold mixed (alloy) with silver, while in the six added trumps and in the numeric pip cards the gold material is pure gold. That makes you think something that seems logical to me and I accept, although a different explanation could be put forward. You say that the pip cards were created in the second commission. Therefore, we can assume that the horses were painted around 1451 and that the ace of gold was painted later, around 1465. It would be useful to know if scientific studies have analyzed the material of the three shields (ace and horses) to know if it is gold or silver. Apparently in the photos I see gold on the shield of the horses and silver on the shield of the ace of gold.
Around the shield of the horses I see a silver area. I would like to know if that is silver that has not changed to gold over time. Around that silver area I see another area that is gold.
In some photographs, I see that the Ace of Gold has a purple color around the mysterious shield, although other photographs perhaps do not have that so evident. That purple paint could have been previously painted under the red and silver shield. Another possibility is that the purple paint was on top of the shield and has worn off. I find it strange that there is purple paint and I would like to know if other people see it too and have an opinion on it. I suspect that the purple color is underneath everything. You see it when the gold color of the medallion or coin chips or comes off due to aging but I am not sure, that is, the purple paint could be on top, so that when it comes off you can see the gold color. By the way, I don't see any white color on the mysterious shields, but white light reflectations.
Bologna: https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/lang ... es/#scheda
Milan: https://www.armoriale.it/wiki/Armoriale ... _%28Bon%29
On a page about surnames I see that the surname Bon existed in Bologna before it did in Venice. Also, on the wikipedia page that you shared I see that the Bon shield with silver on the right existed in Venice but also existed in other places such as Milan, although I don't know in which century that happened. We do not know if the coat of arms on these three Pierpont cards is the coat of arms of Bergamo or of a Bon family or of the Toppau duchy, whose relation to Emperor Sigismund seems too indirect.
On the other hand, the symbolism of the clothing on some characters in the deck is by Visconti and Sforza, taking into account that even the Venetian lion on the King of Swords was possibly not chosen as an enemy country but as a symbolism associated with Francesco Sforza who worked as a general in the Venetian army, except for the period between 1452 and 1454 when Venice was Francesco's enemy and it seems an unlikely time to date the first Pierpont commission. By the way, it seems strange to me that it is commonly dated in 1451 or 1452 since 1452 seems unlikely. There are those who date the deck to 1455 and I don't know why they do so but I think that it makes some sense because Venice was no longer an enemy of Milan since the peace of Lodi in 1454. However, I think that 1450 may be a good year to date the first order of the Pierpont.
In short, there is symbolism of the Dukes of Milan in the figures of the deck but there is a mysterious coat of arms in the Ace of Coins and the horses. I think that the symbolism of the Ace of Coins refers to the family that received the deck, while the symbolism of the clothes of the figures is identified with the family that commissioned the creation of the deck. It could be the other way around but I think what I have said is more likely. Therefore, perhaps the Pierpont deck was commissioned by the Visconti Sforza family as a gift for a Bon family from Milan or Venice or for someone from Bergamo, if the coat of arms is not silver but gold. Ialon rejected a hypothesis by Huck suggesting a possible connection between the Pierpont and the deck requested by Malatesta. My proposal is somewhat similar but different. I hope we can be united in finding a solution. Do you think the coat of arms on the Ace of Pentacles can be identified with the family that ordered the deck or with the one that received the deck?
By the way, I find the theory that the coat of arms on the Ace of Pentacles was painted over later unnecessary and unlikely. If the deck had been kept by the Colleoni of Bergamo early on, I think that perhaps they put the Bergamo coat of arms on top of whatever was underneath. I thought that perhaps the Colleoni received the deck when they had a good relationship with the collector Isabella de Este. However, the Pierpont deck reached the Colleoni centuries later and I have the feeling that it is too late to add coats of arms. Perhaps another person from Bergamo added the coat of arms. However, I reject these hypotheses and I think that possibly the Ace of Pentacles has the coat of arms of the family that received the deck as a gift. It would be strange for people to discover that the Visconti Sforza deck was not from the Visconti Sforza but we cannot ignore the importance of the coat of arms represented on the Ace of Pentacles and on the long-suited knights.
By the way, it is true that the coat of arms on the Vieville deck is the same although inverted. Has any scholar said why this coat of arms is used? Is it probably copied from the Pierpont?
I would like to point out other details. Huck, I think you mentioned 26 letters kept at Casa Colleoni. I think there is an error originating from a Kaplan scheme, where it exposes contradictory data. The 26 cards are in Academia Carrara. True? On the other hand, 15 letters are currently from the Colleoni family. There are texts that talk about Casa Colleoni but I believe that those 15 letters are not displayed in a building called Casa Colleoni. I don't think there is a building with that name. Bartolomeo Colleoni built a church or chapel where he is buried but that church is not called Casa Colleoni and I think it has no letters. Those 15 letters are from the private collection of the Colleoni family and I believe they cannot be consulted because they are not exposed to the public. The texts that speak of Casa Colleoni refer to the Colleoni Family. "House" is "family" in that context. Not building. True?
Finally I want to show you an image of the Visconti Sforza type cards preserved in the Fournier museum in Spain since someone from this forum wanted to see the ace of pentacles with the castle. By the way, I get the feeling that the Popess is the same size as the Ace and the two of pentacles. This is strange because Dummett only differentiated the Popess, which I suppose is the only one with a red back but not the only one of a different size. If the Fournier photo (six cards) is correct, it appears that there are cards from more than two decks. What do you think about this? In addition, the frame line has a different color (red) on the two small cards while the others have a blue line.
Fournier: https://museotik.euskadi.eus/coleccion/ ... -ca-64798/#
I can't put here the picture but this is the web. How is possible to put pictures here in the forum? Preferably jniversal sistem to see easy the image with any telephone.