mmfilesi wrote:The fact that the pope from the deck of the Medici not wearing a papal tiara, but a "mitra", is important. Should be investigating this ...

mmfilesi wrote:The fact that the pope from the deck of the Medici not wearing a papal tiara, but a "mitra", is important. Should be investigating this ...

In 1055 Florence even played host to a council, under Pope Victor II with the presence of Emperor Henry III and the participation of 120 bishops. Many old structures were rebuilt during the second half of the 11th century, the cathedral of Santa Reparata, the Baptistery and San Lorenzo among others. On November 6, 1059, [Florentian] Bishop Gerard, who had become pope under the name of Nicholas II, reconsecrated the ancient baptismal church of the city which had been rebuilt in more imposing form, much like what it is today. The building, octagonal in plan, with a semicircular apse on one side and three entrances, seems to have been covered by a pointed-arch dome divided into eight sectors and the outside was not yet faced with its fine marble casing.

(Robert)

In a recent post, Ross G Caldwell brought up something that has stuck in my mind since I saw it.

He said
My notion at present is that the Popess did evolve in the tarot deck. At first it would have been two non-descript Popes, distinguished from one another merely by one holding the book and cross, the other holding keys (or whatever); same for the Emperors. Other distinctions found favor over time, including Male-Female. Thus you get an Empress and a Popess, or, to be fair, a female-male imperial pair and a female-male papal pair.

This has brought to my mind a few earlier discussions.
Is the Papess a Man?
The Avignon Papacy
and the 15th century image on the right from the Sacro Subiaco...

Subiaco7.jpg Viewed 9016 times 45.14 KiB

..showing what the caption for the page describes as
Quote:
"The portrait on the right shows a pope of the VIIth century, but the XVth century painter did not care about historical accuracy and Agatho I, who died in 681, is crowned with a very nice triregno, the triple crown introduced by Bonifatius VIII (1294-1303)"
I keep coming back to the possibility that the Popess and the Pope show two men, both popes... and wonder.. does that in some way connect to Avignon? Does it show an "Eastern Pope" and "Western Pope"?

And what of the Emperor and Empress? Has the Empress always been shown *clearly* as a woman? Are there examples of two Emperors early in the development of Tarot?

Does the German "Imperatori" fit in here somehow?

What does the Bologna Tarot contribute to this.. if anything?

I realize these are just ponderings... but I sincerely wonder if there is something to the suggestion? Can we find more evidence to support or disprove it?

(Ross)

That's a very nice picture of a rather feminine looking Agatho - thanks for that. I hadn't seen it before.

Yes, the features can be ambiguous, especially on Popes who were generally beardless.

Both Popes in the 17th century Bolognese tarot look youthful and feminine; one Emperor is old, while the other is young, but not distinctly feminine. When Mitelli designed his deck for the Bentivoglio of Bologna around 1650, he distinguished his Emperors by age and posture - one is bearded and sitting, the other is beardless and standing (not feminine looking though); his Popes are both bearded, and are distinguished by sitting or standing.

I think everyone has a guess or even a pet theory about why there are two imperial and two papal figures (as opposed to dealing with them as always four distinct figures).

I think most people view the Bolognese-Florentine tradition as an aberration (if they give it a moments' thought), an early censoring of the Popess. Rosenwald (Florence c. 1500) definitely has a Popess, but the card is entirely missing from the Minchiate. We can't say if Bologna ever represented a Popess - these cards are always called simply collectively "Papi".

But if we imagine for a moment that the southern tradition is the first, then
East-west is a good explanation; maybe it refers to schism in the west (the Great Western Schism of 1378-1417; but not definitively settled until 1449 when Felix V - Amadeus VIII of Savoy and Filippo Maria Visconti's father-in-law - last elected Pope of the Council of Basel - abdicated), or maybe it could refer to the Council of Ferrara-Florence, when both the "pope" of the East, Patriarch Joseph of Constantinople, and the West, pope Eugene IV of Rome, sat down side-by-side.

There weren't two Emperors at the council however; Sigismondo of Hungary had died in 1437, just before the Council began. John Paleologus, Emperor of the East, was there however.

But geo-political and/or social explanations might be misguided. The existence of these four figures might have nothing to do with contemporary history. One explanation I toy with is that these four figures simply add the higher hierarchical figures to the normal deck with court cards, i.e. that their fourfoldness reflects the fourfoldness of the Queens, Kings etc. They are simply higher than kings, and thus join the two packs as bringing *everyone* under the morality of the trump series (subject to fortune and God).

Finally, and still more speculatively, there is the notion that the four Papi are the "fossil" of the Imperatori deck, which provided the inspiration for the tarot trumps. In this hypothesis, the four Imperial-Papal cards were the first "trumps". The fact that the earliest mention of the Imperatori game calls it "8 Emperors", might not mean that there were 8 Emperor cards - tarot was called "7 kings game" (Siebenkönigsspiel) in Germany at one point, which referred to the seven high-scoring cards, 4 Kings, Fool, Bagato, and World. Thus trumps could be called "kings", and by analogy Kings might have been called "Emperors" in an early version of the Emperors game (implying then that the Kings and Emperor-cards scored equally).

The might be a difficulty in this, as the actual "Papi" don't have any point values by themselves in Bologna or Piedmont. But there is something - 3 or four of them form a sequence which is worth points when counting.

So there's plenty of room for speculation here.

If there is a cultural and geo-political reflection of the times in these cards, I think it is certainly that there is a recognition of a balance of opposing secular and religious powers in the world. The equal-papi rule is subtle and profound, when you think of it metaphorically, and I tend to think it is the earliest rule for these cards.

Two frescos by Giotto (1297-1300) that might help clarify the difference between the Papal Tiara and the Mitre of the Bishops:

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/assi...s_2/franc17.jpg
St. Francis preaching before Honorius III. The Tiara in this frescos is almost identical to that we see in the Charles VI Pope: a single golden crown. Of course, this shape was common at the time of Giotto, but it is strange to see it in a XV Century tarot card (when the triple crown was common).

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/assi...s_1/franc07.jpg
The confirmation of the Rule (the Pope here is Innocent III). In this fresco there are both Mitres and the papal Tiara: the difference should be clear. In this case, the Tiara has no crown: its only difference from the Mitre is the conical, non-flat shape, without the two horns that can be clearly seen in the four Mitres.

Marco

You are right Marco- Honorius 111 has the Papal mitre on- I cannot really tell with Innocent 111- Charles V1 has the right behive shape Mitre, but no identifying three divisions. Of course I agree the Painter of the Charles V1 Card may have intended that the beehive Mitre to be a Papal Mitre, but if so, he forgot to show the three divisions on it. So as I said earlier it is not the shape that makes it a Papal Mitre- it is an indication of three tiers; they were not always elborate, sometimes just three circles of stitching- that is what tells the difference, not the shape. You can see that quite clearly on the Honorius Papal Mitre, with its etched divisions. So on the face of it, I stand by my statement that the Charles V1 card looks like a Bishops Mitre- not a Papal Mitre. Draw three circles around on it -like seams and -Voila! NO doubt he is a Pope. Thanks for posting the frescos- they are wonderful ~Rosanne

here is the assumption in the Chess Tarot theory, that the deck was made for the 14-year-old Lorenzo.

Seguono due Papi, uno col Regno et l'altro senza et dopò questi l'Imperatore, et il Re, che sono le due supreme dignità; nello spirituale Cardinale et Papa, nel temporale Re, et Imperatore;