Yngwë Yngweron wrote: I’m sure you’ll have issue with many aspects of my narrative, but I’d be interested to hear your criticism of this: http://yzygy.blogspot.com/2010/06/borro ... gs-23.html

mahalo.

The numbers 32 - 127 - 72 appear in a book, that I know, and which was published 1988.
Your representation is not complete, one number is missing.
... the Sepher Yetzirah is a book about the 32 ways of wisdom, not about the 22 letters of the alphabet.


The whole Tarot is not necessary in this question (or better said: "in this number game"), it's just Sepher Yetzirah and only one version of it, as other versions used other letter relations (in the case, that I remember this correctly).
Curiously the 7 planet - 7 double letter system, which is not given in Sepher Yetzirah, as far I remember, seems nearly right as constructed and given by the Golden Dawn arrangement - somehow they must have had some good ideas. They had also a good idea with the Fool, somehow meeting something, which was really thought before. But two planets seem exchanged, Mercury and Moon.



You better forget about this figure ... the Sepher Yetzirah hadn't a life tree of this kind. Life tree ideas are said to have developed around the time of Gikatilla and probably with Gikatilla. There were lots of different life trees, biting in one as the only "true and reliable" of them ... well, that's only "confusion by - not necessary - complexity". Well ... a lot of your other representations are from the same fruitless quality. You have to forget about them... .-)

Huck wrote:The numbers 32 - 127 - 72 appear in a book, that I know, and which was published 1988.
Your representation is not complete, one number is missing.

72 = 360 / 5
If you look a little closer, you may notice a stack of 4 of these Hypotrochoids:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotrochoid


x4 = 32 years

This form depicts the synodic cycle of 5 conjunctions (6x6x6 degrees apart) between Earth & Venus every 8 Earth years; equivalent to 13 Venus years:

0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34...



The Mars:Earth cycle creates a 7-pointed STAR every XVI Earth years, but the exeligmos (turn of the wheel) is defined by the return of conjunctive alignments to their same position with respect to their zodiacal setting upon the ecliptic.


x2 = 32 years

For Mars:Earth to return to this position requires 2 of these Hypotrochoidal patterns.

Taking into consideration the division of the octave into 12-semitones:
the Fifth = 7 half steps, and the Fourth = 5 half-steps.
VIII ---> XI : = 7th House
XI ---> VIII : = 5th House
You may have noticed a tendency among musicians to exhibit an interest in the occult. I suggest to you this may have something to do with the fact that many symbols common to the 'western' magical tradition have a direct correlation to geometric representations of pitch & pitch class space.

Compare to the Pythagorean tetraktys:

1:1 = unison
2:1 = octave
3:2 = fifth
4:3 = fourth
4:1 = double octave

Huck wrote:the Sepher Yetzirah is a book about the 32 ways of wisdom, not about the 22 letters of the alphabet.

As you are no doubt aware, the 32 ‘wondrous ways of wisdom’ are comprised of 10 numbers + 22 letters + "the Draco is like to a king on his throne, the sphere like a king traveling in his country, and the heart like a king at war." In the course of my research I have tried to consider the qualitative as well as quantitative aspects of the numbers related to the structure of the Marseilles pattern.

I've seen the Tree represented by stacking the mother letters atop one another:
ש
א
מ
- How far back does that tradition go?

Huck wrote:You better forget about this figure ... the Sepher Yetzirah hadn't a life tree of this kind. Life tree ideas are said to have developed around the time of Gikatilla and probably with Gikatilla. There were lots of different life trees, biting in one as the only "true and reliable" of them ... well, that's only "confusion by - not necessary - complexity". Well ... a lot of your other representations are from the same fruitless quality. You have to forget about them... .-)

You may have noticed that my thesis is less about Sepher Yetzirah than about a particular ‘card game’ which integrates the Marseilles pattern with a Tree of Life lattice configured as a geometric projection preserving octahedral symmetry. Considering how this Lead to Hera’s orchard of golden apples, you can’t exactly call it ‘fruitless’ (☉)- )

I’ll grant you that documentation for this version of the Tree is of more recent vintage; but, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack - especially when discussing a history of esoteric transmission. In fact, if there is One distinguishing feature of the tradition which has given rise to this ‘card trick’, it is the tendency among adepts to leave a single defining feature out of place - obvious enough for an initiate to correct, yet sufficiently distorted to keep the uninformed in the dark. Befittingly, the configurations of the various Trees which preserve octahedral symmetry are a projection rendered by the interplay of Light & Shadow; and the system they serve to teach is a ultimately a method of loci mnemonic TooL. Thus, any argument which proposes their invention could not have preceded Kircher, d’Aquinn, or even Gikatilla is logically untenable.

We might also take into consideration that this point symmetry is preserved in the ‘Flower of Life’ symbol such as those found at the Temple of Osiris at Abydos (variously dated from anywhere between the 6th century, BC to the 4th century, AD).

As yet, I’ve not yet found such a diagrammatic framework explicitly provided by Gikatilla, but am always interested in elder representations of the Tree. The earliest example I’ve come across (rather, the earliest that comes close to it) is from the converso Paulo Riccio’s Portae Lucis (Light Gates) - a translation of Giktilla’s "Sha'are Orah" (The Gates of Light).



I've read that Riccio (like Pico della Mirandola, Joseph Reuchlin & Cornelius Agrippa) was also one of the earliest sources for the Pentagrammaton:

יהשוה

...which, within the context of the structural parallels shared between the Marseilles pattern & the Holy of Holies in SOLomon’s Temple, may be read as a formula for fitting their ‘pieces’ back together. If we pause to consider the ramifications of this ‘cartouche’ further - especially as regards the Caduceus constructed upon our ‘game-board’ - we may gain in sight as to why some occultists have referred to Qabalah as the ‘Yoga of the West’.

XX: Tooth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dens_%28anatomy%29
0
XII

Huck wrote:But two planets seem exchanged, Mercury and Moon.

That may depend upon which Foundation you choose to ‘erect’ your pillar; or, perhaps more accurately, what kind of Tree you are trying to grow. The Moon is exalted in Taurus and, if you care to check, can be charted there on Dec.25th, 1 BC. But, perhaps more relevantly, the lunar tides have long been observed to affect the growth of plants. The High Priests (Hierophants) of ancient times, inasmuch as they were keepers of the calendar, calculated our agricultural cycles by the rhythms of Sun & Moon.

☉ Tipareth
XIV

☽ Yesod

Regarding the Planets sequential order upon the Tree, it has been observed that this arrangement reflects their speed relative to Earth. By spatially mapping their change in sequence from Tree to Tarot within the hexad configuration (Star of David), they trace a Knot known as the Whitehead Link - which, like Borromean Rings, also preserves the metric of ideal octahedra within hyperbolic space.




Getting back to our Cremonese inquiries: the Church of San Sigismondo wasn’t exactly named after the Emperor Sigismund. Rather, both were named after the Burgundian King Sigismund (d.524) who, after having his own son strangled to death, prayed for a just punishment - which he is said to have received after the sons of Clovis I (Childebert I, Clotaire I and Theodebert I) took revenge for the murder of their grandfather by Sigismund’s dad, Gundobad. The story goes that Clotair ordered him dropped down a well. He was later canonized as a martyr, presumably for his role in converting the Burgundians from Arian (non-Trinitarian) to Nicene (Trinitarian) Christianity, even though the Burgundian King Sigismund wasn’t exactly defending the faith at the time of his execution.

Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV had his ‘relics’ moved to Prague, where he became a patron saint of Bohemia (currently the Czech Republic) and, we may surmise, the source of inspiration for naming his son, Sigismund I. An ironic choice given the supposed role he was to play in the murder of his first mother-in-law, the Dowager Queen, Elizabeth of Bosnia. The ‘Wolf of Rimini’, Sigismund Malatesta, seems to have exhibited similar marital issues; no doubt reflected in his kneeling before San Sigismund - as portrayed in the fresco by Piero della Francesco.

Perhaps the name holds some symbolic value that has been overlooked?

Let’s see...
Sigismund I, the Emperor-elect
Cabrino Fondulo, the beheaded condottieri
John 23, anti-pope
...is it possible that the legend attributing our Borromean Rings’ as representative of the friendship between these 3 men could also serve an alchemical purpose similar to the tale concerning Hercules’ founding the city of Cremona?

Sigismund presided over the Council of Constance as temporal head of Christendom, at least in name; which resolved the 3-way Papal schism.

The Emperor card, inasmuch as it has been attributed to the zodiacal sign Aries, has a specific affiliation with the Wolf of metals (antimony) used to create the STAR Regulus:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=438#p5739
IV <---> XVII : VIII <---> XI = essential dignities of Gold☉:♄ Lead

And the removal of the Pythagorean comma from a stack of 12 Perfect Fifths can be viewed as a kind of ‘beheading’ which creates the Wolf Fifth.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_ ... atic_scale
= 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3eKuFFHGH30/T ... gggggg.jpg

Burning off the antimony from a STAR Regulus of Leo yields a very pure, refined Gold; which may have something to do with the musical note, middle c ≈ (φ x 10)² Hz
By extension: within an 11 octave range:

Cˌˌˌ = [(10x Φ )²]:32 Hz
Cˌˌ = [(10x Φ )²]:16 Hz
Cˌ = [(10x Φ )²]:8 Hz
C = [(10x Φ )²]:4 Hz
c = [(10x Φ )²]:2 Hz
c′ = (10x Φ )² Hz = 261.803...
c′′= 2[(10x Φ )²] Hz
c′′′= 4[(10x Φ )²] Hz
c′′′′= 8[(10x Φ )²] Hz
c′′′′′= 16[(10x Φ )²] Hz
c′′′′′′= 32[(10x Φ )²] Hz

Could it be that the events surrounding the ‘birth’ of Tarot were orchestrated as a kind of alchemical allegory written indelibly across the plane of Time?

In any case, there is a rationale for calling our ubiquitous deck of cards The Book of Thoth - especially when we take into account the inventions accredited this ‘scribe of the gods’ within the mythology of ancient Kemet included Gambling. Whether or not Tarot was drawn from a book of the former Egyptians which escaped the flames that devoured their superb libraries, there does seem to be some kind of 'lost' science embedded in this work that bears a striking similarity to ancient descriptions of the Pythagorean mysteries.

And wasn't Pythagoras supposed to have traveled to Chaldea during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews before heading off to Mystery School in Egypt?

BTW-
Does anyone know if the chapel where the Viscounti-Sforza marriage occurred was also named after San Sigismondo?

Yngwë Yngweron wrote:

Huck wrote:The numbers 32 - 127 - 72 appear in a book, that I know, and which was published 1988.
Your representation is not complete, one number is missing.

72 = 360 / 5
If you look a little closer, you may notice a stack of 4 of these Hypotrochoids:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotrochoid

x4 = 32 years

... ... I guess, we talk about Sepher Yetzirah ... I don't remember, that it contains a "360". It talks mainly about "32 ways of wisdom", not mainly about the alphabet and it's 22 letters (though the 32 ways of wisdom contain the letters).
Well, every author has the right, that his work is read, before his work becomes interpreted and related to topics, he never talked about. Isn't this normal?

I said:
"The numbers 32 - 127 - 72 appear in a book, that I know, and which was published 1988.
Your representation is not complete, one number is missing."

Without knowing the 4th number, you cannot talk about the "72" and speculate about it.

Well, you have the information, that the book is about the 32 ways of wisdom ... you successfully realized, that the grouping scheme inside the letter part produces the numbers 32 - 72 - 127 and you somehow realized, that this seems "intentional from the side of the author" and I agree.
Now you're looking in the great wide world, what these numbers might mean, instead reading the author.

What's missing in your calculation?

Huck wrote:I said:
"The numbers 32 - 127 - 72 appear in a book, that I know, and which was published 1988.
Your representation is not complete, one number is missing."

Without knowing the 4th number, you cannot talk about the "72" and speculate about it.

Well, you have the information, that the book is about the 32 ways of wisdom ... you successfully realized, that the grouping scheme inside the letter part produces the numbers 32 - 72 - 127 and you somehow realized, that this seems "intentional from the side of the author" and I agree.
Now you're looking in the great wide world, what these numbers might mean, instead reading the author.

What's missing in your calculation?

Regarding the numerical structure of Tarot’s major arcana as applied to the sequence of Hebrew letters, we can also examine the values obtained from the sum of each letter’s digital root: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3eKuFFHGH30/T ... /1aaaa.jpg

Thus, the set of values: 32, 72, 127
is joined by another set: 5, 18, 73

(5+18) x127 = Earth:Venus hypotrochoid = (72-32) x73

5x 72 = 360
5x 73 = 365

There are, of course, the 231 gates of light referred to in some versions of the text; which, according to how one envisions the ‘connections’ between letters, has also been described as 220 in number. I’ve seen various representations: a 21-simplex has been used to map 231 distinct letter permutations and, as I recall, SteveM (kwaw) had a rationale for the 220 variation that stemmed from a model of 10 concentric rings.

I tend to look at the forms induced by figurate numbers for patterns consistent with a unified whole. In this respect, 231 occurs as several shapes of interest - particularly the 7th octahedron - which I’ll show in greater detail with RING THREE. Octahedrons & octahedral symmetry seem to be a recursive feature of this System.

But, getting back to the question:
What's missing in your calculation?

I could go on about the architecture of this enigmatic little puzzle box ad infinitum, but the ‘point’ isn’t exactly what One finds - rather, our journey is about what remains hidden from view.

You may remember from my 3-ring diagram in 'RING ONE - the hidden element' that imagining the Great Pyramid as pointing to the center of an 11th cube exhibits some interesting correlations to the 22/7 ratio approximating π and the annus magnus of Mercury:Earth conjunctions. Well, there is something definitely missing in that calculation - and it is brilliantly described by Basilius Valentinius' infamous VITRIOL backronym: Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultem Lapida



For, as you are no doubt aware, the Great Pyramid has no cap stone - just as there isn’t really a stack of 10 cubes of 7, nor is there a set of Borromean Rings superimposed over our planet or a giant dragon in the sky guarding a grove of gold apples. It’s all a construct of the imagination created by literally ‘visiting’ the interior of the Earth &, by repeated distillations, ‘finding’ that hidden stone. If the answer was in front of us, we wouldn’t ever go looking for it. Which is probably why so many Tarot historians, convinced that Dummett & his ilk are the last word on the subject, have duped themselves into denying these cards any connection to the ancient mysteries.

Well, I might remind you that Thoth was also a trickster; and his greatest prank of all was hiding his Book right in plain sight...



...for those with eyes to see.

http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/word ... tem+lapida

occult.em V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE SUB 1 S
occulto, occultare, occultavi, occultatus V (1st) [XXXBX]
hide; conceal;

lapid.a V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IMP 2 S
lapido, lapidare, lapidavi, lapidatus V (1st) [XXXDX] lesser
throw stones at; stone; [lapidat => it rains stones];

This phrase seems meaningless to me. The first word is a second person singular verb, the second word is an imperative. "I conceal (?). Throw stones!". But the first verb is a subjunctive, so it cannot stand as a main verb.
Such depths are unfathomable to me.

Marco

... When a child, we played "Ich sehe was, was du nicht siehst", and when the answer was very wrong, it got a "it's very cold".

From that, what you told in your last letter, only "Well, I might remind you that Thoth was also a trickster; and his greatest prank of all was hiding his Book right in plain sight... " ... that's somehow lukewarm ... and the simple "in plain sight" get's "somehow near to hot".
That, what you miss, is rather similar to that, what you already have and I mean only "32 + 72 + 127" and nothing else from your other confusing observations.

... ... sorry, that I've to torture through this, but I think, you need a lesson in "simple thinking". I guess, your complicated expectations are the problem. It's not wrong, that you're able to think about complex and complicated matters, but you need to have the ability to abstract of them to see the trivial.

marco wrote:http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/word ... tem+lapida

occult.em V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE SUB 1 S
occulto, occultare, occultavi, occultatus V (1st) [XXXBX]
hide; conceal;

lapid.a V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IMP 2 S
lapido, lapidare, lapidavi, lapidatus V (1st) [XXXDX] lesser
throw stones at; stone; [lapidat => it rains stones];

This phrase seems meaningless to me. The first word is a second person singular verb, the second word is an imperative. "I conceal (?). Throw stones!". But the first verb is a subjunctive, so it cannot stand as a main verb.
Such depths are unfathomable to me.

Marco

I believe it must come from the Rosicrucian-alchemical phrase Visita interiora terrae rectificando invenies occultum lapidem, an expansion of the word "Vitriol".

Visit the inner parts of the Earth and by rectifying you will find the Hidden Stone

Yngwë Yngweron wrote:

Well, I might remind you that Thoth was also a trickster; and his greatest prank of all was hiding his Book right in plain sight...



...for those with eyes to see.

Hopefully after we've gone through the labyrinth of letters and numbers, and had our eyes jarred open in order to see Thoth's reality altering tome, we will still be able to sit down to a nice supper with friends and loved ones and enjoy a nice wine and some well prepared seasonal delicacies (and of course the cheese board... how I love the cheese board! ) without feeling any urge what-so-ever to talk a bunch of rubbish at the table and spoil all the good cheer.

Well, this is the serious part of the Tarot History forum ...

It was analyzed by the following table by Yngwaz...



... that the Tarot cards 0-12-20 (Fool-Hanging Man-Judgment aka Air-Water-Fire), which refer to "3 mothers" according the table form the number 0+12+20 = 32. As the number 32 appears in the Sepher Yetzirah in that, what one could call "the title" (32 ways of wisdom, with which God formed the world) of this small text of about 2000 words, and the above table was constructed according "Kabbala", though in reality according one of the versions of the Sepher Yetzirah, this seems to be a hidden, not directly obvious, intention of the author of Sepher Yetzirah.

This is a nice and plausible observation, something "real" inside all these speculations, which were made in the past about the nature of Sepher Yetziah, well worth to be known by persons interested in this topic.

It was concluded by Yngwaz, that, if the "3 mother-letters" are constructed in a way, that they express "something", that the other groups of the Hebrew alphabet ("double letters" and "simple letters") also express "something" (something, which the author of SY found interesting enough to show) - that's a normal "good" research idea and logical.

According the table these are the numbers

1-2-3 ... 10 ... 16 ... 19 ... 21, resulting in 1+2+3+10+16+19+21 = 72
and
... 4-5-6-7-8-9 ... 11 ... 13-14-15 ... 17-18, resulting in 4+5+6+7+8+9+11+13+14+15+17+18 = 127

Both numbers look interesting (there are a lot of number combinations, which would look less interesting), and it is a fair research approach to speculate, what these numbers might have meant in the mind of the unknown author of Sepher Yetzirah.

Now the Sepher Yetzirah is calculated to have been made at least ca. 5th century AD, but possibly in its number system much earlier (well, 1000 BC or even older is not impossible), and the Tarot was formed in 15th / possibly even 16th century AD.
At least about 1000 years difference and normal time logic (what later happened, couldn't have influenced that, what had been before) dictates to assume, that the hidden author of SY hadn't information about Tarot and therefore couldn't relate to topics like Aleph=Fool, Mem=Hanging Man and Shin=Jugdgment. These often used and often discussed relations, as far we know them, were formed by Eliphas Levi (in another correspondence) and Golden Dawn in an "improving process" during 19th century.

So - in analyzing mode, what's true and untrue - we can skip any information, which comes from Tarot and throw them out of the observation, and can look at this, what is left for the understanding of Sepher Yetzirah alone.

Tarot didn't exist in 5th century AD, but the number-row 1-21 did exist then. Also ideas to play with numbers a little bit existed.

Aleph = 0 in the mind of the author of SY ... why not?

If the argument comes, that the cipher "0" didn't exist, then it doesn't count, cause, although "0" didn't exist, equivalent ideas might have been present like "Aleph isn't counted" or "Aleph was to holy to be counted". Indeed we have such ideas in relevant Kabbala and pre-Kabbala literature.

Aleph = 0, beth = 1, ... etc. is possible (in the mind of the author) and "natural", for instance - just as a sign and often discussed - the bible starts with a "Beth" and not with "Aleph", Bereishit ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereishit

Well, 32 - 72 - 127 ... one number is missing.

Why? The theme of Sepher Yetzirah had been "32 ways of wisdom", not "22 letters" alone (though these appear as a subgroup).
Without knowing the 4th number it's worthless to speculate about the meaning of 72 or of 127. So what big mystery the missing 4th number might reveal, if we know it?

Hi friends!

I don't believe the tarot is influenced by Kabbalah. The speech of the tarot is essentially Christian, (Boethius, Petrarch, Millennialism ...) with a little (very little) of Neoplatonism and another references cultural.

However, we must solve the mystery of the number 22.

We have two possibilities:

1). From the beginning, the tarot was twenty-two triumphs (Ross hypothesis). Then, we can say nothing. We can't establish theories about unknown decks.

2). The tarot evolved of 16 - 14 - 20 to 22 triumphs (Huck hipóteis). This change came about around 1480. Then its possible that this change is influenced by Kabbalah. The tree Sefirotic are in fashion arround 1480.

However, I think this would be the only influence, the number of triumphs.