posted: 25 February 2009 11:30 am ET
" ... President Obama's speech to Congress last night might have emphasized urgency over historical accuracy when he stated, "And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it." ..."
http://www.livescience.com/history/0902 ... gaffe.html

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: Yes, I said before, if I want a good historical place to invent the equal-papi rule, 1410 would be good, Constance would be good. But I am constrained by my dating - something that happened in 1978 should not be the reason something is invented in 2008.

The case is specific and has its own conditions ... a lot of playing card rules or game features have wandered from one "name of a game" to another "name of a game". The relation of "Trionfi and Tarot" and "Germini and Minchiate" and "Karnöffel and Keyzerspiel" are just a few cases between many others. Your definition, that the "name and named object" appear at the same time is simply not appropriate to reality. "Mantegna Tarocchi" ... Mantegna was already gone and Tarocchi hadn't come, but it is a name of an object. And the object has a time of invention and the naming process could have another time.
Naturally ... there is a good chance, that a "new object" gets a "proper new name" at the same time, but it isn't a rule you can rely upon.

You variously note, that Bologna stayed "traditional in their card motifs". But that is quite common for all decks, which had reached the "woodcut level" some time. We've about 170 fragments (Hoffmann told this number) of printed sheets in German decks 16th/17th century. The most show this "traditional behaviour". We've only few Tarocchi sheets in comparison. Some of these few are given to Bologna. It's natural, that we have the "result", that "traditional behaviour" is stronger observable in Bologna than elsewhere.

But Florence, whose woodcuts reached the same level at the same time, changes a lot. Their lists change a lot.

I only observe, that everything we know about Bologna is conservative. If you would like that what we don't know is not conservative, what can I say?
All I can ask is, why do think it is likely that Bologna had as many changes as Florence?

But Florence, whose woodcuts reached the same level at the same time, changes a lot. Their lists change a lot

.. everything conservative ... ? And what we know of Mitelli?

The Minchiate is similar conservative in its observable process (as extant cards and in its own way) as Tarot de Marseille and its variants.
http://trionfi.com/i/01/
...see the list at the bottom to Minchiate at the "Deck" links, looking motif for motif. A lot of figures are rather stable.

What do you mean with "But Florence, whose woodcuts reached the same level at the same time .."
Which woodcut decks do you give to Florence? And when?

We've the specific note for 1477, that a larger commission for Trionfi card prohibition is given in Bologna ...

I don't know what you mean about prohibition in 1477.

This is a mental typo ... replace "prohibition" with "production"

...
Are these the news from a playing card producing city?

Ah, yes, exactly. Without such activity, we wouldn't have notes at all. They are negative evidence - an activity was going on, and it got big enough to get noted because it caused problems or was a source of money. These are *exactly* the kinds of negative proofs that prove it was there.

A tax is only worth making if it makes money - that means a lot of cards were being produced. San Bernardino's story is a legend, and you know these fervors had no lasting effect. Albergati could not have preached against gambling if it wasn't a big problem.

All of law is the same - laws aren't made against non-existent crimes.

A "high tax" can have similar prohibitive function as a prohibition. Anyway ... the great gambling enemy were the dice games, whose users would need less culture and could sit on the streets to have their fun. This disturbed the public eye. People sitting at a table give a better picture, so less prohibitions for cards. And there was the general idea, that "people should work" ... and not indulge in games.

For a card producing city like Nurremberg you've also occasional prohibitive tendencies, but they are drowned in the balancing notes, which relate to production. Bologna has for this time no good balance. Similar in the Florence region for this same time.
It took Nurremberg years to overcome the impact of St. Capristanus and becoming "normal" again. And San Bernardino's activities were visited by unbelievable masses of visitors ... if we can believe the propaganda.They had the trick to invoke and to deal with public hystery.

Huck wrote: .. everything conservative ... ? And what we know of Mitelli?

The Minchiate is similar conservative in its observable process (as extant cards and in its own way) as Tarot de Marseille and its variants.
http://trionfi.com/i/01/
...see the list at the bottom to Minchiate at the "Deck" links, looking motif for motif. A lot of figures are rather stable.

What do you mean with "But Florence, whose woodcuts reached the same level at the same time .."
Which woodcut decks do you give to Florence? And when?

A - southern -Florence/Bologna has something C - Tarot de Marseille does not - handpainted cards from a very early period that are very similar to later printed cards of the same place. There is demonstrable continuity.

The Visconti and Sforza cards do not resemble in any way the Tarot de Marseille or any printed tradition.

Mitelli is a luxury engraving, for a specific commission - obviously it will be unique, and given Mitelli's genius, both unique and beautiful. It is not a standard Bologese tarot and was never meant to be.

We can talk about the differences between the earliest evidence of A (Charles VI and Catania in particular) and the printed versions - Rosenwald and Beaux-Arts/Rothschild (I'm going to abbreviate it from now on to BAR). Those differences may be purely stylistic, given that they are unique products, or they may be indicative that the standard they were based on was different too. At least the differences between what we know of Catania and Charles VI (Chariot, nude-with-stag) suggest that the artists were being inventive. Catania's Chariot looks like Rosenwalds, Charles VI's Chariot looks like BAR's and Bologna's.

The earliest Florentine printed cards seem to be Rosenwald - the other sheets of Rosenwald were discovered in Arezzo, if I remember correctly (I'll check later). The consensus is that it is the "Florentine" - or probably better the "Tuscan" pattern of the late 15th century.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: A - southern -Florence/Bologna has something C - Tarot de Marseille does not - handpainted cards from a very early period that are very similar to later printed cards of the same place. There is demonstrable continuity.

The Visconti and Sforza cards do not resemble in any way the Tarot de Marseille or any printed tradition.

... ... which serves as an argument or their high age ... in comparison: We have many old German decks, which also are not proceeded. Indeed, if we find prolongations of a younger date (as recently discussed), it is spoken of "forgeries".

Mitelli is a luxury engraving, for a specific commission - obviously it will be unique, and given Mitelli's genius, both unique and beautiful. It is not a standard Bologese tarot and was never meant to be.

So your use of the term of Bolognese Tarocchi comes to the conclusion, that not everything from Bologna is Tarocchi Bolognese pattern. We have very much curious decks from Nurremberg from the 1500-1550, but these would be according your definition also not Nurremberg pattern.
This methode leads naturally to a comparison of iconographic elements, by which similarities, organized in groups, are artfully mixed with city names, but the deciding point for their used category is not their true origin location, but the iconographic similarity.

German card makers in 15th/16th century produced for the Italian market, using Italian suits ... partly we have such examples surviving. How would we call them, if they had imitated Bolognese Tarocchi?



Funny Italian putti at an Italian suit of cups, Master of the Bandelore, 15th century, somehow northern Germany

We can talk about the differences between the earliest evidence of A (Charles VI and Catania in particular) and the printed versions - Rosenwald and Beaux-Arts/Rothschild (I'm going to abbreviate it from now on to BAR). Those differences may be purely stylistic, given that they are unique products, or they may be indicative that the standard they were based on was different too. At least the differences between what we know of Catania and Charles VI (Chariot, nude-with-stag) suggest that the artists were being inventive. Catania's Chariot looks like Rosenwalds, Charles VI's Chariot looks like BAR's and Bologna's.

The earliest Florentine printed cards seem to be Rosenwald - the other sheets of Rosenwald were discovered in Arezzo, if I remember correctly (I'll check later).

Arezzo - well, that would be a nice information, I haven't heard of this. Do you have also confirmation, which numbers are at the Rosenwald sheet in the Stuttgarter Museum?

The consensus is that it is the "Florentine" - or probably better the "Tuscan" pattern of the late 15th century.

Whose consensus ?

I'm a little confused of BAR given to Florence, it is given to Bologna by Andrea Vitali.

For the Charles VI you probably know, that I've detailed arguments to place it to 1463 (Florence) and to see its trumps as a complete special-card-series of precisely 16 cards and not more.

They then would have had no Papessa, no Empress ... both features repeat in the later Minchiate, which is definitely "from Florence".
However, the Rosenwald uses a Papessa and an Empress. You give it also to Florence (cause the numerology, cause the octogonal halo), but we know, that Florence exported cards, so that Florentian card makers might have similar to Germans felt no reluctance to imitate decks, which were played at other places.

Huck wrote:

Mitelli is a luxury engraving, for a specific commission - obviously it will be unique, and given Mitelli's genius, both unique and beautiful. It is not a standard Bologese tarot and was never meant to be.

So your use of the term of Bolognese Tarocchi comes to the conclusion, that not everything from Bologna is Tarocchi Bolognese pattern. We have very much curious decks from Nurremberg from the 1500-1550, but these would be according your definition also not Nurremberg pattern.

No, I said STANDARD pattern. Obviously these are to be distinguished from NON-STANDARD designs, such as the Mitelli.

German card makers in 15th/16th century produced for the Italian market, using Italian suits ... partly we have such examples surviving. How would we call them, if they had imitated Bolognese Tarocchi?

... and Bologna made Tarots for every other market too - at least attested since the 18th century -, including French Tarot. They are not the Bolognese standard pattern, but whatever other pattern, made in Bologna.

The earliest Florentine printed cards seem to be Rosenwald - the other sheets of Rosenwald were discovered in Arezzo, if I remember correctly (I'll check later).

Arezzo - well, that would be a nice information, I haven't heard of this. Do you have also confirmation, which numbers are at the Rosenwald sheet in the Stuttgarter Museum?

No, I haven't yet begun research for the day. A quick look through Dummett doesn't bring up the reference to Arezzo. I may be wrong, but I am sure I read it somewhere, that a sheet of court cards and pips like that of Rosenwald was located in Tuscany (not a trump sheet).

For the Stuttgarter Museum, I also don't know (are we sure this even exists?)

The consensus is that it is the "Florentine" - or probably better the "Tuscan" pattern of the late 15th century.

Whose consensus ?

Everyone but yours, I guess.

I'm a little confused of BAR given to Florence, it is given to Bologna by Andrea Vitali.

This statement shows that you have not read, or not understood, most of what I have written on this thread. BAR is earliest printed example of the Bolognese standard trump pattern, as I argued in the very first post of this thread, and repeatedly in many posts throughout the thread, including the one you are responding to.

The iconographical discussion initiated in the first post is BASED on the BAR sheets. It is BASED on the BAR sheets being Bolognese. Moreover, the identification of the Charles VI and Catania packs as Florentine is based on comparing these cards with Rosenwald (Florence) with BAR (Bologna), and noting their differences. There were many greater similarities with Rosenwald than with BAR, hence my assignation of these cards to Florence. Fiorini took a slightly different route (looking at details of Rosenwald), and Depaulis discovered the Emperor's Florin with the Florentine fleur-de-lis in the Rothschild CARDS (not SHEET). Fiorini was reluctant to publish her sense that Charles VI etc. also came from Florence because of the two or three decades old assumption that they were Ferrarese. But when my research coincided with Fiorini-Depaulis', we realized there was sufficient agreement from separate lines of investigation, and that there was therefore enough consensus to move not only from Ferrara to Florence, but also to precisely differentiate Bologna from Florence (since the similarities of Charles VI with the Bolognese trumps had long been recognized).

Finally, the BAR sheets are clearly Bolognese. Of the trumps present, only Devil is different from later Bolognese cards.

The BAR has twelve cards:



SUN
similar to Charles VI (C)
similar to later Bolognese pattern (B)

WORLD (Caesar ?)
NOT similar to C
similar to B with variations (but clear Mercury, the figure has winged shoes)

HANGING MAN
similar to C - open hands, with money
NOT similar to B (here are hands bound to the back)

WHEEL (with animal at top)
NOT PRESENT
half similar - but here the upper figure is a person

ANGEL (dominant Angel)
NOT similar to C
similar to B

TIME
NOT similar to C
similar to B (with genital face, with man in mouth)



TOWER (with falling men, Tower takes much place at the picture)
half similar to C (without falling men, Tower takes much place
3/4 similar to B (with falling men, Tower takes less place, but more as at Marseille Tarot)

STAR (3 men, but composed with specific detail)
NOT PRESENT
similar to B (but the details are changed)

MOON (two astronomers)
similar to C
similar to B

DEVIL (with genital face, with man in mouth)
NOT PRESENT
similar to Hebreo card (Bologna), but not similar to B (no genital face, no man in mouth)

CHARIOT (winged helmet, frontal view, Caesar ?, specific heraldic detail)
half similar to C (frontal view)
similar to B, but the specific heraldic detail is missing

DEATH (on specific "stupid" horse, without victims)
1/4 similar to C (on not stupid horse, with victims, scissor is seen not complete)
similar to B

********

Well,
I see some similarity to Charles VI, but not much
I see much more similarity to the later Bolognese pattern

So I have reasons to give it to Bologna, not to Florence.

... but I stumbled about two details, at the Chariot and at the Starcard, and that made me thinking

*****

The Chariot has a heraldic sign at the front, and it is the French Lille. The figure shows Caesar elements, as you has argued.

When had Bologna reason to honor the French king ... actually I come only to one moment and that's 1511, Bologna had been freed by French troops and was happy to have the pope outside of the city, with enthusiasm the new build castle of political control was destroyed again.
Pope Julius got a breakdown and was kept as "soon dying" ... already it was discussed, what will happen soon after his death. One of the discussed possibilities was, that Emperor Maximilian, recently a widower since 1510, should become the new pope.

If we now look at the star card (which serves also your argumentation for an early Bolognese Tarot) we've there 3 men (you assume 3 Magi), but I see there an

... an Emperor apple over the head of a crowned person

... with it's left he helds an object, which has similarities to a crown or Tiara and it looks, as if he gets it

... in the same time his right hand seems to pass something to the person to the right, who stretches his left arm to take it

... or they are trading and negotiating, cause the crowned figure stretches one finger

... well, ever heard of finger counting and trading with fingers to keep the negotiations secret?

... it's said, that this still was farspread in 15th century. Georges Ifrah, who studied old cipher systems in detail, tells interesting stories about it

... the scene might describe precisely finger negotiation and we see a closed bag bound at the left hip of the crowned person indicating, that this person has money

... the third figure in the back observes the action. From its tiara-like hat it might present Pope Julius, who for the moment is hopeless and "out of order", but it might be also just a partner of the person to the right.

... the right figure has not a crown or an tiara, but something like a citizen's hat (?) or that of a normal person. It might present the "Bolognese" or the "people of Bologna".

And the negotiation seem to say: "We can make you pope, what do you pay ... " and the possible buyer, probably Maximilian seems to be interested.

This situation was only true in a specific moment of history. Julius turned back to life and turned the tables very quickly.

In later Bologna decks the left person is a pope with triple tiara and he has a crown, which he seems to give to one of the two other persons. One of the other two persons is (not always) already crowned. The scene seems to present the crowning of an Emperor ... which as a ritual became lost to the pope precisely in 1508, when Maximilian had declared himself Emperor, cause Venice didn't allow him to cross to Rome. This was accepted by Julius, but with restrictions. Charles V. then formally fulfilled the crowning ceremony 1530 (this happened in BOLOGNA), but this was the last done by the pope.

The Bolognese star card has as forerunner the Ferrarese d'Este cards (probably ca. 1475) ...



... in a phase, in which the Ferrarese court was interested in astronomical studies and even produced astronomy books, had a famous astrologer with astronomical tendencies and a Palazzo project with astronomical frescoes, at which we find a lot of details, but not 3 Magi.
And there are only two astronomers at the card, not 3.

Before we have NO STAR in the Charles VI and NO STAR in the Cary-Yale-reconstruction, but a Star woman in the 6 added stars, which probably in it's composition sun-moon-star goes back to the Medici chapel, which objects are indeed the 3 Magi.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: No, I said STANDARD pattern. Obviously these are to be distinguished from NON-STANDARD designs, such as the Mitelli.

... and Bologna made Tarots for every other market too - at least attested since the 18th century -, including French Tarot. They are not the Bolognese standard pattern, but whatever other pattern, made in Bologna.

So we agree, that one cannot be sure so easily about an origin, based at iconographic details

For the Stuttgarter Museum, I also don't know (are we sure this even exists?)

... ... the Museum, or the cards?
http://www.spielkartenmuseum.de/

I gave it a new try and wrote them, perhaps they react this time. I've even telephoned, but they said, that I should write an email.

The consensus is that it is the "Florentine" - or probably better the "Tuscan" pattern of the late 15th century.

Whose consensus ?

Everyone but yours, I guess.

... .-) ... who is everyone?

I'm a little confused of BAR given to Florence, it is given to Bologna by Andrea Vitali.

This statement shows that you have not read, or not understood, most of what I have written on this thread. BAR is earliest printed example of the Bolognese standard trump pattern, as I argued in the very first post of this thread, and repeatedly in many posts throughout the thread, including the one you are responding to.

Yes, I was confused about your recent post which seemed to contradict, so I wanted to be sure. ... ... But, btw., did you understand the many things, that I said about Charles VI ... ... you never reflected to "Charles VI" having 16 special cards, made 1463".

The iconographical discussion initiated in the first post is BASED on the BAR sheets. It is BASED on the BAR sheets being Bolognese. Moreover, the identification of the Charles VI and Catania packs as Florentine is based on comparing these cards with Rosenwald (Florence) with BAR (Bologna), and noting their differences. There were many greater similarities with Rosenwald than with BAR, hence my assignation of these cards to Florence. Fiorini took a slightly different route (looking at details of Rosenwald), and Depaulis discovered the Emperor's Florin with the Florentine fleur-de-lis in the Rothschild CARDS (not SHEET). Fiorini was reluctant to publish her sense that Charles VI etc. also came from Florence because of the two or three decades old assumption that they were Ferrarese. But when my research coincided with Fiorini-Depaulis', we realized there was sufficient agreement from separate lines of investigation, and that there was therefore enough consensus to move not only from Ferrara to Florence, but also to precisely differentiate Bologna from Florence (since the similarities of Charles VI with the Bolognese trumps had long been recognized).

Thanks, that you summarized the development ... that I didn't know.
So I assume, that you (and Depaulis) took meanwhile private contact to Fiorini. So "everyone" above means Fiorini-Depaulis-Caldwell ???

Finally, the BAR sheets are clearly Bolognese. Of the trumps present, only Devil is different from later Bolognese cards.

[/quote]

Well, as my recent post shows, I don't mind, that these cards might come from Bologna. I've even a suggestion, when it was made. ... .-) ... well, in the case, that it wasn't a French imitation production.

What makes it necessary, that Rosenwald is from Florence inspired, not from Bologna? The octagonal halo? The Arezzo-origin? Something else

Huck wrote:

For the Stuttgarter Museum, I also don't know (are we sure this even exists?)

... ... the Museum, or the cards?
http://www.spielkartenmuseum.de/

I gave it a new try and wrote them, perhaps they react this time. I've even telephoned, but they said, that I should write an email.

I see now Dummett and McLeod, History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack (HGT), that this sheet exists in Leinfelden and is "badly damaged". Kaplan's description seems to be wrong though, since it is so badly damaged that you can't read all the numbers.

HGT is interested in the numbering of the Wheel of Fortune, since it seems to be out of place in the otherwise normal sequence of cards on the Rosenwald sheets. But they can't read the number on the Wheel of Fortune in Washington or Leinfelden.

... .-) ... who is everyone?

Anyone who's ever offered an opinion on it. It's simply taken for granted that it is Florentine. Dummett, Depaulis, Algeri, Fiorini, me. That's just a few references I found, and that's a consensus. I'll bet Franco agrees. Why, do you doubt it?

Yes, I was confused about your recent post which seemed to contradict, so I wanted to be sure. ... ... But, btw., did you understand the many things, that I said about Charles VI ... ... you never reflected to "Charles VI" having 16 special cards, made 1463".

Well, I'll look. I don't agree in principle with the 16 cards being the complete set, but there is nothing implausible about the dating. I am more content with "circa 1460".

So I assume, that you (and Depaulis) took meanwhile private contact to Fiorini. So "everyone" above means Fiorini-Depaulis-Caldwell ???

No, everyone who has an opinion on where the sheet(s) come from. Can you show me someone who thinks otherwise?

Well, as my recent post shows, I don't mind, that these cards might come from Bologna. I've even a suggestion, when it was made. ... .-) ... well, in the case, that it wasn't a French imitation production.

1511 is not impossible, but I don't agree with the methodology you use to put it there, so I'm satisfied with c. 1500 still.

The fleur-de-lis does not have to mean French - Florence had it for a long time, and Bologna also used it, which according to a webpage no longer up was given as a gift to the city by Charles of Anjou in 1266 (I'll have to check on that). Later, at the end of the 14th century, Florence gave them another standard, the word "Libertas". The current coat of arms of Bologna uses both standards, in a quartered shield, with the Anjou gift representing the commune, and the Libertas shield representing the people.

Look up the phrase "Bologna's emblem" for a few notes of it.

One time I had the idea that the figure on the shield of the triumphator might not be a fleur-de-lis, but a very small imperial eagle - they might be confused at that size. Caesar is sometimes shown with this symbol.



and in an image from the Riccardiana (I'll go get the link - how do you capture the images?)

Here his flagbearer is carrying it -
http://miniature.riccardiana.firenze.sb ... &PAGxRsM=1

and here it is on a shield -
http://miniature.riccardiana.firenze.sb ... &PAGxRsM=1

(both are images of "cesare" in a mansucript of the "Fatti dei romani")

What makes it necessary, that Rosenwald is from Florence inspired, not from Bologna? The octagonal halo? The Arezzo-origin? Something else

I don't know about Arezzo... it may be that it was new information or discovery of a few years ago, and not yet published. It would only tend to confirm the provenance of the pattern though.

But Rosenwald being Florentine comes from the other sheets, with courts and some pips, that look like Minchiate cards. This is the argument Dummett made in 1980. When Charles VI was thought to be Ferrarese (from Klein (1967) until our work (2006), although Depaulis already raised the possibility of Bologna in 1984), Algeri in 1987 could write "Ferrara late XV (?) Florence early XVI (?), because of the Rosenwald sheets' similarities to the Charles VI. But with Charles VI now safely in Florence, that they are related and come from Florence is even clearer.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
I see now Dummett and McLeod, History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack (HGT), that this sheet exists in Leinfelden and is "badly damaged". Kaplan's description seems to be wrong though, since it is so badly damaged that you can't read all the numbers.

HGT is interested in the numbering of the Wheel of Fortune, since it seems to be out of place in the otherwise normal sequence of cards on the Rosenwald sheets. But they can't read the number on the Wheel of Fortune in Washington or Leinfelden.

HGT ???

Anyone who's ever offered an opinion on it. It's simply taken for granted that it is Florentine. Dummett, Depaulis, Algeri, Fiorini, me. That's just a few references I found, and that's a consensus. I'll bet Franco agrees. Why, do you doubt it?

Dummett, Algeri, Fiorini by personal contact ... or by their writings? ... ... Franco doesn't agree so easy, generally.

I doubt it, as it has Empress and Papessa. Minchiate has no Empress and Papessa, and Charles VI. has no Empress and Papessa. If Rosenthal has Empress and Papessa, why should it be from Florence?[/quote]

Recently you became interested in probability collection.
In this case the Minchiate has all 22 trumps, but not Empress and no Papessa. How big is the chance, that a wild taken 16 of 22 includes NONE ELEMENT of a specific pair, selected like Empress and Papessa from a second source of information?

Not difficult ... 6x5 / 21x22 = 30 / 462 = ca. 6.5 %

That's more curious as if I wouldn't know anything of you and would declare, you're Leo in astrology and I would be right (chance 8.75 %). If it makes you suspicious (what it should do), you would check, if I had opportunity to look in your passport.

Well, and for me it doesn't look like an accident. Naturally it could be an accident, but it is much more probable that it is none, produced by an unknown condition, in this case likely, that Florentine decks hadn't a Papessa and an Empress.
Considering the close relationship between Florence and the papacy, which as a side effect caused also the higher prohibition rate than in Milan or Ferrara, the missing Papessa and Empress in Florence has additional logic. Whereby the reason is probably not the Empress, but the Papessa, but if you take Papessa away, some symmetry is broken, so that the Empres went away together with Papessa.

For the Rosenwald it means, that it is either not a Florentine deck, or made in a time, when the Florence politeness against the pope was broken (which is naturally possible, that such times had happened).

For the Charles VI it means, that one should look for interpretations, which don't grab back to an assumed existence with the standard 22 motifs. The most easy way it is, to leave all 6 missing cards away and assume a deck with 16 special cards only.

Well, I'll look. I don't agree in principle with the 16 cards being the complete set, but there is nothing implausible about the dating. I am more content with "circa 1460".

... once you talked of ca. 1450.

No, everyone who has an opinion on where the sheet(s) come from. Can you show me someone who thinks otherwise?

Such things aren't decided by plurality ... even if I stand alone, it would be a hard match ...

1511 is not impossible, but I don't agree with the methodology you use to put it there, so I'm satisfied with c. 1500 still.

The fleur-de-lis does not have to mean French - Florence had it for a long time, and Bologna also used it, which according to a webpage no longer up was given as a gift to the city by Charles of Anjou in 1266 (I'll have to check on that). Later, at the end of the 14th century, Florence gave them another standard, the word "Libertas". The current coat of arms of Bologna uses both standards, in a quartered shield, with the Anjou gift representing the commune, and the Libertas shield representing the people.

Look up the phrase "Bologna's emblem" for a few notes of it.

I don't find much.



I would think, that 1266 had long gone in ca. 1500, in the case that it wasn't revived by something concrete. In 1494 and in 1500 France became concrete in Italy, but France didn't help Bologna in 1506, having other aims of global importance.
And we have the point, that the both deck parts are nowadays in Paris ... that might mean, that these cards found their way to France already in 1511.

One time I had the idea that the figure on the shield of the triumphator might not be a fleur-de-lis, but a very small imperial eagle - they might be confused at that size. Caesar is sometimes shown with this symbol.

and in an image from the Riccardiana (I'll go get the link - how do you capture the images?)

... ... you've to read the source code ... but it will be too much for you. Tell me, which image, and I try to get it.

Or, if you have not a smart little program to make pictures according your choice of something, what is on the monitor, you need "FastStone Capture"
http://www.faststone.org/FSCapturerDownload.htm

Here his flagbearer is carrying it -
http://miniature.riccardiana.firenze.sb ... &PAGxRsM=1

and here it is on a shield -
http://miniature.riccardiana.firenze.sb ... &PAGxRsM=1

(both are images of "cesare" in a mansucript of the "Fatti dei romani")

I don't get it that way, or I don't understand what you mean.

I don't know about Arezzo... it may be that it was new information or discovery of a few years ago, and not yet published. It would only tend to confirm the provenance of the pattern though.

But Rosenwald being Florentine comes from the other sheets, with courts and some pips, that look like Minchiate cards. This is the argument Dummett made in 1980. When Charles VI was thought to be Ferrarese (from Klein (1967) until our work (2006), although Depaulis already raised the possibility of Bologna in 1984), Algeri in 1987 could write "Ferrara late XV (?) Florence early XVI (?), because of the Rosenwald sheets' similarities to the Charles VI. But with Charles VI now safely in Florence, that they are related and come from Florence is even clearer.

Where are the "other sheets"?

Huck wrote:

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
I see now Dummett and McLeod, History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack (HGT), that this sheet exists in Leinfelden and is "badly damaged". Kaplan's description seems to be wrong though, since it is so badly damaged that you can't read all the numbers.

HGT is interested in the numbering of the Wheel of Fortune, since it seems to be out of place in the otherwise normal sequence of cards on the Rosenwald sheets. But they can't read the number on the Wheel of Fortune in Washington or Leinfelden.

HGT ???

LOL - the answer is in the very part of my quote you posted. I'll leave it up to you.

Anyone who's ever offered an opinion on it. It's simply taken for granted that it is Florentine. Dummett, Depaulis, Algeri, Fiorini, me. That's just a few references I found, and that's a consensus. I'll bet Franco agrees. Why, do you doubt it?

Dummett, Algeri, Fiorini by personal contact ... or by their writings? ... ... Franco doesn't agree so easy, generally.

Writings. Dummett you know (look up "Rosenwald" in the index - you have Game of Tarot, don't you? Does your copy have the illustrations?), Algeri in the 1987 I tarocchi (Ferrara exhibition) catalogue, Fiorini in her TPC (The Playing Card) article of 2006, the one I responded to in 2007. We had a long discussion on AT about it.

I doubt it, as it has Empress and Papessa. Minchiate has no Empress and Papessa, and Charles VI. has no Empress and Papessa. If Rosenthal has Empress and Papessa, why should it be from Florence?

You mean Rosenwald?

Before 2007, the assumption was simply that Florence had the Popess, Empress, Emperor and Pope. At some point, they dropped the Popess, and changed the Empress and Pope into Emperors as well, which is what appears in Minchiate. Dummett assumes in his writings (since they are all before 2007) that this happened at the same time Minchiate was invented.

In 2007 Depaulis published a discovery he had made of a Florentine strambotto (a kind of song) from 1500-1503 that listed the Tarot trumps in exactly the same order as appears on the Rosenwald sheet (except with the Wheel placed above the Chariot, where everybody expected it to go, and the Virtues listed in the Minchiate order). Listed also are the Empress, Emperor and Pope, but the really startling thing about his strambotto was that the Popess wasn't listed (the article is called "Early Italian Lists of Tarot Trumps", in The Playing Card, vol. 36 no. 1 (July-Sept. 2007) pp. 39-50).

This discovery offers indirect proof that Rosenwald is Florentine, and offers direct evidence that the four figures had names (unlike Bologna), and that the Popess had indeed been removed at some point prior to the invention of Minchiate, but before all of the remaining figures had been changed into men and secularized. This occurred sometime before 1500. All of this I said a few days ago here - I believe in response to Mike H - but it never hurts to repeat things, although it gets tiresome.

You should join the IPCS. It only costs about 30 euros a year.

http://i-p-c-s.org/cgi-bin/join.pl

Recently you became interested in probability collection.
In this case the Minchiate has all 22 trumps, but not Empress and no Papessa. How big is the chance, that a wild taken 16 of 22 includes NONE ELEMENT of a specific pair, selected like Empress and Papessa from a second source of information?

Not difficult ... 6x5 / 21x22 = 30 / 462 = ca. 6.5 %

That's more curious as if I wouldn't know anything of you and would declare, you're Leo in astrology and I would be right (chance 8.75 %). If it makes you suspicious (what it should do), you would check, if I had opportunity to look in your passport.

Well, and for me it doesn't look like an accident. Naturally it could be an accident, but it is much more probable that it is none, produced by an unknown condition, in this case likely, that Florentine decks hadn't a Papessa and an Empress.
Considering the close relationship between Florence and the papacy, which as a side effect caused also the higher prohibition rate than in Milan or Ferrara, the missing Papessa and Empress in Florence has additional logic. Whereby the reason is probably not the Empress, but the Papessa, but if you take Papessa away, some symmetry is broken, so that the Empres went away together with Papessa.

For the Rosenwald it means, that it is either not a Florentine deck, or made in a time, when the Florence politeness against the pope was broken (which is naturally possible, that such times had happened).

For the Charles VI it means, that one should look for interpretations, which don't grab back to an assumed existence with the standard 22 motifs. The most easy way it is, to leave all 6 missing cards away and assume a deck with 16 special cards only.

We deduce from evidence - history can't be done by abstract probability calculations. In this case, we know decks lose cards, and we know that Florence changed its Tarot several times in the first century. This is demonstrable. The prevailing theory proved to be correct, only the stages were a little different - the Popess was removed for a time before the Minchiate Papi had become entirely male and secular.

(more later...)

Huck wrote:

The fleur-de-lis does not have to mean French - Florence had it for a long time, and Bologna also used it, which according to a webpage no longer up was given as a gift to the city by Charles of Anjou in 1266 (I'll have to check on that). Later, at the end of the 14th century, Florence gave them another standard, the word "Libertas". The current coat of arms of Bologna uses both standards, in a quartered shield, with the Anjou gift representing the commune, and the Libertas shield representing the people.

Look up the phrase "Bologna's emblem" for a few notes of it.

I don't find much.

I would think, that 1266 had long gone in ca. 1500, in the case that it wasn't revived by something concrete. In 1494 and in 1500 France became concrete in Italy, but France didn't help Bologna in 1506, having other aims of global importance.

This page used to be up with illustrations, but it is now lost -
http://web.archive.org/web/200707220329 ... nr=1_1_1_3

It gives the history of the emblem - sorry the illustrations of historical emblems are gone.

The date of the origin isn't important, just something to know - the point is that the Fleur-de-lis was part of Bolognese heraldry. Not the big part it was in Florence, but a part nonetheless. I don't base any argument on it, except that it doesn't have to be French, and it doesn't have to be Florentine. It could simply represent the idea of regality - which itself could be taken as positive or negative.