Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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mikeh wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 10:39
In an earlier post, I postulated a reconstructed original order for the virtues as follows: 6. Temperance 7. Love 8. Justice 9. Chariot 10. Fortitude; in a Florentine-origin scenario, this order would be original only to Milan and Ferrara, not Florence.
[..]

Where I get bogged down is when you say Love would have been 6 originally. You say that the original order consisted of only Petrarchans plus virtues. If so, how can Love have been 6? What five cards, if there were only Petrarchans or virtues, would have come before it, since the imperatori aren't there yet? I also seem to remember you saying someplace that Love would have been number 1.

And what would have been the original order, anywhere?
In the footnote you are quoting, I actually said Love would have been 7, not 6. I was referring to the (Milanese and Ferrarese) order for the 22-trump deck, not the 14-trump deck, which I thought I had made clear; in any case, it should certainly have become clear if you had clicked on the link I provided there, which goes to the earlier post I wrote about this reconstructed order—which you have already read anyway, because you replied to it. In other words, this footnote is about what I think was the earliest order used in Milan and Ferrara for the 22-trump sequence, as opposed to the earliest order used in Florence for the 22-trump sequence. Nothing to do with the 14-trump sequence.

My view on the most likely order for the 14-trump sequence is made clearer in my subsequent "update" post, which you might not have noticed yet. It is here: viewtopic.php?p=24600#p24600
In that update post, I also indicate that I am now siding with Florence for the creation of the 22-trump deck.
Huck wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 10:54 The interest in the Petrarca Trionfi poem with pictures appears first in a letter of Pietro de Medici early 1441. His letter goes to Venice, which might indicate, that in Venice somebody had earlier done something like this. In this time Florence and Venice had an alliance and Sforza served in the Venetian army.

The intensive interest at the Trionfi poem in Milan was later, as far I remember in the 2nd half of the 1440s. Pietro Lapini da Montalcino and Filelfo were active on it and it had the consequence, that later Trionfi commentaries were published by Bernardino Lapini (Sohn of Pietro) and Francesco Filelfo as printed books.
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Don't forget in the context of "There is no record of Trionfi in Ferrara before this", that there is also no record of "Trionfi" (in context to playing cards) in Milan.
The problem with Milan, as you know, is that we seem to have very few records at all of what was going on at Filippo Maria's court, because of the destruction carried out during the Ambrosian Republic. There is no record of Trionfi, but they definitely had what look very much like Trionfi decks in the first half of the 1440s. We don't have any documents relating to them at all, unfortunately, so the fact that we don't have a document from his court about the Trionfi game doesn't mean much. We also don't have documentary evidence that Filippo Maria was a fan of the Trionfi poems, but that doesn't really mean much either, for the same reason. As I said quite clearly above, the lack of mentions of Trionfi in Ferrara is significant, because we do have several records from the Ferrarese court for this time. The same lack of mentions in Milan is not signficant, because we have almost nothing at all from Milan.

For Milan, all we can do is look at the surviving cards, and look at what evidence we have from people like Decembrio, and draw conclusions from that. This is what I have tried to do.

Decembrio doesn't refer to the Trionfi deck, but he doesn't actually tell us any of the card games Filippo Maria played except for Marziano's game, and obviously that could not have been the only one Filippo Maria was playing, or even one of the ones he played most (because there seems to have been only that one deck ever made for that game, or at least only one luxury deck, otherwise Marcello would not have had such a hard time finding one). So Decembrio is not a good guide to the card games Filippo Maria played or the names he used for them.

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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We have 2 notes about Trionfi decks in Ferrara in the 1440s, both from 1442. We have a 3rd note (14 pictures for Bianca Maria), which isn't named as an Trionfi-deck (1.1.1441), but at least it is suspected to be something in this direction.
We have a deck (Michelino deck), which is mentioned by Decembrio not as a Trionfo deck (1447), but described, and we know, that Marcello knew this same deck and Marcello (1449) called it a Trionfi deck (ludus triumphorum). Marcello had a second deck, which he also called a Trionfi deck.
Dark I remember, that there was a translation of the Decembrio text in the 1460s, and then the terminus Trionfi or similar was used. Ross wrote once about it.
Then we have Trionfi decks in Florence in 1440 (Giusto Giusti), 2 cases of punishment for playing Trionfi (1444), a production in 1445 (silk dealers, grande, 25 Soldi), and 6 Trionfi decks (11? Soldi) in December 1449, made by Giovanni di Domenico. and acquired by the silk dealers.
So we have some stability of the name use of "Trionfi" in Florence, and the rare use of the name Trionfi in Ferrara and Venice and not enough data to decide, if specific playing card decks were called Trionfi in Milan. Well, we have 2 decks from the time of Filippo Maria Visconti, which we would call in our modern world "Trionfi decks", but we don't know, if Filippo Maria Visconti would have called them in this manner.
If a new name appears, then there is always the problem, that some speakers know the name and others not, and , if somebody knows it, then it's a question, if he agrees to use this name.
It looks, as if the people in Florence invented the name Trionfi. The people of Florence were seen by Filippo Maria as foes, likely. I can imagine, that he avoided to use a name, which was invented in Florence.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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Thanks for the guide to your posts, Nathaniel.

So I take it that the original order would have been Love, Temperance, Justice, Fortitude, Chastity (First Chariot ), Death, Fame (Second Chariot), Time, Faith, Hope, Charity, First Eternity (Angel), Second Eternity (World). The only one I couldn't find the original (14 triumph) place of is Prudence. Please advise. Then I can proceed.

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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mikeh wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 01:19 So I take it that the original order would have been Love, Temperance, Justice, Fortitude, Chastity (First Chariot ), Death, Fame (Second Chariot), Time, Faith, Hope, Charity, First Eternity (Angel), Second Eternity (World). The only one I couldn't find the original (14 triumph) place of is Prudence. Please advise. Then I can proceed.
That's my view, yes. As I said before, I imagine all the cardinal virtues were clustered together between Love and Chastity. That would therefore include Prudence. I have no view regarding her exact rank among those four, except that I do not think she would have been the highest (because I think Fortitude was the most likely to occupy that position). Perhaps she was the lowest, between Love and Temperance—that might have been one reason why she was the one they decided to remove, i.e. because she seemed the least significant.

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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mikeh wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 01:19 So I take it that the original order would have been Love, Temperance, Justice, Fortitude, Chastity (First Chariot ), Death, Fame (Second Chariot), Time, Faith, Hope, Charity, First Eternity (Angel), Second Eternity (World).
I was just looking again at this listing you made of my hypthetical order for the Petrarchan 14, and I became even more convinced of my idea about Fame being effectively replaced by the Wheel. When Death was moved up to be after the Traitor, that would have left the two chariot cards directly one after the other. This would have made their ranking even harder to remember; it makes it easy to imagine people wanting to reduce them to just one. And if we assume that all the other changes had been made (including the reduction of the cardinal virtues to three), then Fame would then have been at position 11 at that stage, exactly where the Wheel would presumably have been in the earliest standard sequence.

In this reconstruction of the process, the reduction of the two chariots to one and the insertion of the Wheel would thus have been the last modification made before the standard sequence began to spread to other cities.

PS: please note that I replied to your question about Prudence in an earlier post above (in case you didn't see it and came straight to this one).

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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Phaeded: Thanks. Well, I am still back at step 1, but almost done.

This step 1 deck with 14 triumphs circulates among Milan, Ferrara, and Florence, perhaps bypassing Bologna.

Then we come to step 2, which necessarily happens in a different milieu than the initial invention ("the people responsible for step 1 could not also have been responsible for Steps 2 and 3"), one not an aristocratic court. Imperatori cards are added, with perhaps a few of them being ordinary suit cards at first (is the procedure for choosing the suit the same as in Karnoffel?). Probably steps 2 and 3 happened in the same city and milieu.

About step 2, the addition of imperatori cards (or functions, in some cases): Where do the Imperatori cards go in stage 2, and in what order? I don't suppose it matters much, since it all gets rearranged in stage 3, but it would have to have been something, and I want to understand your view. I would guess that they go in front, in the order Fool, Bagatella, Hanged Man, Devil, Empress, Emperor, Popess, Pope. But perhaps the Popess would go somewhere earlier and the Hanged Man and Devil later (but among the first 8). Do you have any thoughts about these placements?

Then comes step 3, which "probably" happens in the same milieu and city as step 2.

In step 3 the two Chariots (Chastity and Fame) are removed and replaced by just one, which has dropped all reference to Petrarch's 6 and is just "The Triumphal Chariot". Time is moved before Death, and Hanged Man put at 13, making Death 14. Also, Wheel is added in the middle, at 11. That means the Fool is now a wild card, not part of the sequence. (Or was that in stage 2? It doesn't matter.). Theological virtues replaced by celestials. Prudence replaced by Tower, which is put as a bridge between Devil and Star. So I guess that means Devil is moved to after Death, unless he was already there (please clarify).

Something also happens to the positions of the three remaining virtues, but I'm not sure if it all is in stage 3. You discuss Justice being put between Angel and World in your "step 1 updates" (viewtopic.php?p=24600#p24600). But it seems to have been done even later than step 3, because for step 3 in both Ferrara and Milan you have 6Temperance, 7Love, 8Justice, 9Chariot, 10Fortitude. In Florence it is simply Temperance, Justice, Fortitude, which might have been the original, and in that order it goes to Bologna. Then in what I will call step 4, or 3+, Justice goes to second to the end in Ferrara, Temperance goes to just after Death in Milan, and Justice goes after Fortitude in Florence.

At some point in Florence, then Bologna, the Angel became the highest triumph. I assume that is in step 3, but I am not sure, as you discuss the two cards in "step 1 updates."

So noq the 22 special cards pass from one city to the others (now three of them), and all four make changes in the order, notably in the position of the three virtues and, in Florence, the Angel, removing the Popess later. In Bologna's case, its only change might be to install the "equal papi" rule, although that might be an original feature that others changed.

Now as to surviving partial decks. You say that the Modrone (Cary-Yale) reflects the 22 special card deck, except for having numerous step 2 features: 7 Petrarchans, 7 virtues, 8 Imperatori, the Wheel; but maybe the Tower replaces Prudence. So it is somewhere between 1 (in designs) and 3 (in cards and order). The Brera-Brambilla also is 22, but it is unclear how much like the CY it was. I assume you think the PMB is a full-fledged step 3. In Florence the CHVI is a full-fledged step 3, although by then Florence may have removed the Popess.

Please correct my errors in understanding and clarify where you can.

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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Mike, thank you for making the effort. I know my writing is not always as coherent as it could be. But you managed to get nearly everything.

When the eight Imperatori cards were added in Step 2, I imagine all eight were basically put where they remained in the standard 22-trump sequence, the only possible exception being the Traitor:

- The Fool probably had basically the same function in Imperatori as it later had in tarot, because (as I said above in Part 3) its function in the tarot game is a typically Karnöffel-ish sort of function. It's easy to imagine it already working like that in Imperatori. And this explains something that Dummett found surprising, namely that the idea of a trump suit and the idea of the Fool would both have been invented simultaneously in the game of tarot—he thought it was surprising for two such radical ideas to have come into being at the same time. In my hypothesis, however, neither of them would have been invented in the game of tarot: Marziano's game already had a trump suit and (rather more explicitly) so did the 14-trump Petrarchan game, and the Imperatori game would have already had the Fool.
- The Bagatella would have been made the lowest trump, just as in Imperatori, because that was literally its defining characteristic
- The Pope, Popess, Emperor, and Empress would all have been defeated by Love, because the players would have loved the idea of that
- The Devil, as I said in Part 4, must have been directly below Faith at this stage, because that explains the insertion of the Tower after the theological virtues were replaced by the Sun, Moon, and Star.
- It's a little hard to say where the Traitor would have been at this stage. I feel that it probably would not have been below Love, although maybe it could have been, perhaps at position 6, above the Emperor. But the most likely answer is that it was already put at position 13 at this stage. This would be just after Death, and you would expect them to have moved Death up quite soon after that, to place it after the Traitor (i.e. this would be the first change in Step 3). I had been thinking that this could not have happened so early, but it is indeed possible: If Death was moved up above the Traitor, that would make the Traitor into number 12, so they presumably would have then moved the Traitor up again to keep it at number 13, and Death would naturally have had to move up with it, with the result that Fame was now number 12. (I am assuming that it had not yet occurred to anyone that having Death as 13 might be even better than having the Traitor as 13; I suspect that didn't occur to anyone until the Florentines removed the Popess and Death became 13 as a side-effect of that.) Later on, when Prudence was removed from the deck, the Traitor would again have become number 12, so they would have once again moved the Traitor and Death up one position, so that Time would now have finally become number 12. In other words, the exact timing of these moves doesn't matter so much, provided you assume that they were always very keen on having the Traitor at number 13 and Death immediately following it. Everything else just falls into place.

I do not think Time was "moved before Death." That is not the best way of putting it. I don't think Time was really moved at all. I think it is Death and the Traitor which were moved, and Time's position simply changed as a result of that.

As for the Angel becoming highest trump, that is really quite simple: If the standard 22-trump sequence was created in Florence, then the order of Angel and World would have been reversed during Step 3, almost certainly during or prior to the replacement of the theological virtues by the Sun, Moon, and Star. If the standard 22-trump sequence was not created in Florence, then the reversal of Angel and World would not have occurred until that standard sequence reached Florence (but I now believe this to be the less likely of these two scenarios, as I said above).

I like your name "Step 4 or Step 3+" for what came immediately after the creation of the standard 22-trump sequence. That's not a bad way of thinking about that. Currently my view is that Florence is where the standard 22-trump sequence was created, with Angel as highest trump, World as second highest, and the virtues ranking as follows: 6. Love 7. Temperance 8. Justice 9. Fortitude 10. Chariot. That would be the end of Step 3.

"Step 4" would then involve this order going to Milan (or possibly Ferrara, but most likely Milan), the Milanese rejecting the change of the top two trumps and reinstating World at the top followed by Angel, but nevertheless also spacing out the three virtues, so that Temperance is now below Love and Fortitude is higher than Chariot. Note that this is despite the Florentine order for the virtues actually being closer to the hypothetical first order in the 14-trump sequence: This seems a strange thing for Milan (or Ferrara) to have done, but it could be explained various ways, including the possibility that they had already done this in their version of the 14-trump game after that game had spread to Florence.

That modified order then goes from Milan to Ferrara (or vice versa if it went to Ferrara initially, but that seems unlikely). That is the end of the tarot creation process: all three cities now have the standard set of 22 trumps. Florence's order then also spreads to Bologna (and Rome etc.) but the Florentine order does not spread onward from Bologna to Ferrara, because by that time, Ferrara already has the modified order from Step 4.

Everything else—such as the promotion of Temperance and Justice in Milan and Ferrara respectively, the removal of the Popess and the swapping of Fortitude and Justice in Florence, and the "equal papi" rule and the demotion of the Chariot in Bologna—is, as far as I'm concerned, just part of the general changes to the trump orders which then started happening everywhere and continued until the cards were numbered (and sometimes even after that). I don't consider any of that as belonging to Step 3 or even Step 4.

As for the surviving decks, you're basically right about all of that. That is how I see it, including the Popess possibly having been removed in Florence by the time the Charles VI was created. My basic idea about the Visconti di Modrone and Brera Brambilla decks is that Visconti had adopted the standard 22-trump sequence after Step 3 (or even after Step 4) but restored as many of the Petrarchan features as he could.

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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Thanks for the clarifications.

I left out one important part of your theory, namely, the two milieus, aristocratic/small, and popular/large. Step 1 occurs in the small, steps 2 and after in the large. So for you all the partial surviving decks are from step 3 or beyond. Also, step 1 is in at least 2 cities, one of them being Ferrara. Step 2 is either in a third city or a popular part of the same city, but just in one city. Step 3 is in a popular milieu, starting in one city, probably the same as step 2, and spreading to the other two. It is in step 3 that the order of the virtues is changed in the two places where the 22 special cards go to, either in Florence, to 3 in a row, or in Milan and Ferrara, where virtues and Petrarchans alternate, all in step 3. Other minor changes: the "equal papi" in Bologna, Temperance after Death in Milan, the reversal of Fortitude and Justice in Florence, and the removal of the Popess in Florence, happen later.
Please correct me where I misunderstand.

Is the Modrone then a stage 3 with stage 1 features, i.e. theologicals, a Chastity Chariot, and Prudence (so no Tower)? Any others? In stage 3 are there now two types of decks, one with and one without the theologicals and Prudence, the one with them surviving in Florence, becoming Minchiate, and the Cary-Yale being another type, which doesn't survive in Milan? Also, you didn't say whether the PMB "first workshop" cards would have had theologicals or celestials. Is one or the other part of your theory?

Re: The 14 + 8 theory

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mikeh wrote: 16 Mar 2022, 23:11 I left out one important part of your theory, namely, the two milieus, aristocratic/small, and popular/large.
This is indeed an important part of it. I think it's absolutely crucial to understanding the standard set of 22 trumps to see it as the result of something created by highly educated people being extensively modified for the benefit of much less educated people.
So for you all the partial surviving decks are from step 3 or beyond.
I have to correct you there: As I said in my original posts above, I think it's possible that the Issy/Warsaw deck could have been a 14-trump Petrarchan Trionfi deck (= step 1). However, I think this is only a limited possibility, because the Issy Chariot does not look quite like what I would expect Fame to have looked like (because she holds the objects in the "wrong" hands and her entourage is entirely female, as Chastity's might have been).

But I also think that the Rothschild deck could have been an Imperatori deck. This possibility is much stronger—in fact, I now think this is virtually certain, mainly for the reasons we discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2318
So that's definitely a deck which I don't think is "from step 3 or beyond."
Also, step 1 is in at least 2 cities, one of them being Ferrara.
Small correction here too: it is essential to the hypothesis that the 14-trump deck spread to all three cities, Milan, Ferrara, and Florence (by the end of the 1430s in the case of Florence and Milan, and by the time of Bianca's visit at the end of 1440 in the case of Ferrara).

Everything else you wrote there is an accurate summary of my ideas.
Is the Modrone then a stage 3 with stage 1 features, i.e. theologicals, a Chastity Chariot, and Prudence (so no Tower)?
Yes, I think so, although it's entirely possible that the Tower was in the Visconti di Modrone deck as well as Prudence (meaning the total number of trumps would have been more than 22). Fame might have been restored to it as well.

I have pondered the possibility that this deck could have been step 2 only, but that doesn't fit with the Brera deck, which is from around the same time, probably slightly later, and which contains the Wheel, which must surely have been added in Step 3. The timeline is very crowded if we have to assume that the Visconti court was still using a 14-trump deck at the end of 1440, then adopted the expanded trump sequence by 1442 in the step 2 form, and then adopted the step 3 form just a year or two later. Also, I find it very hard to imagine that Visconti would ever have adopted the step 3 form if he was already using the step 2 form—the step 3 form violates the Petrarchan associations far more than step 2 does, so if he was happy with step 2, I can't imagine him ever switching over to the step 3 version. This is another reason to think that both step 2 and step 3 happened in Florence, far from the Visconti court (meaning that there would have been virtually no way Visconti could have adopted the relatively short-lived step 2 version).
Any others?
Do you mean any other decks like the Modrone, or any other stage 1 features in the Modrone? We don't have enough information to speculate about whether there were any other decks like the Modrone. As for the stage 1 features of the Modrone, it might have also had Fame, as I said above; beyond that, we really can't speculate.
In stage 3 are there now two types of decks, one with and one without the theologicals and Prudence, the one with them surviving in Florence, becoming Minchiate, and the Cary-Yale being another type, which doesn't survive in Milan? Also, you didn't say whether the PMB "first workshop" cards would have had theologicals or celestials. Is one or the other part of your theory?
I'm inclined to think that the mixed type of deck represented by the Visconti di Modrone (step 3 with step 1 features) was never used outside the court of Filippo Maria Visconti. It might not even have been used there for long either. He might have eventually accustomed himself to the standard 22-trump sequence that most people in Milan would have been using. Certainly, if the Brera deck was later than the Modrone, as Roberta Delmoro believes, then it looks like he reverted to the normal court cards, at least. So maybe he accepted the normal 22-trump sequence too.

I think the Modrone deck probably dates from very shortly after the expanded trump sequence was adopted at the Visconti court, and possibly shows us something of how Visconti initially reacted to that new expanded sequence: He liked it enough to adopt it (no doubt because he recognized how much better the game was with the larger number of trumps), but didn't like the loss of the Petrarchan significations, and possibly he also thought that it was a good idea to increase the number of court cards because of the expansion of the trump suit. In other words, it's possible that the extra court cards in that deck were mainly a reaction to the increase in trumps from 14 to 22.
cron