Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

11
Huck wrote: 06 Dec 2020, 00:38 ...I personally prefer to assume, that Libra+Aries and Cancer+Leo are the "4 against the other 8".

24 Libra
25 Virgo
26 Scorpio
------------
27 Aries
28 Capricorn
29 Sagittarius
------------
30 Cancer
31 Pisces
32 Aquarius
------------
33 Leo
34 Taurus
35 Gemini
Thanks for your considered reply, Huck.

I don't see how this chart is a 'solution' of the reasoning behind the order.
There is no consistency in the ordering of the signs that are close;
three are successive but in two different directions, one is not even successive (Virgo/Scorpio),
Cancer and Leo are rulerships of Moon and Sun, but what is the imperative for Libra and Aries?
There doesn't seem to be a pattern here other than pairing signs that are close in the zodiac,
but that doesn't mean a whole lot, especially when the four that separate them have no consistent relationship.

Litlluw
RLG

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

12
Huck wrote: 09 Dec 2020, 11:20
So we have 3 times Libra as the first sign of these different curious zodiac presentations. Lot book with 22 elements, Lot book with 32 elements and Minchiate with 41 or 97 elements. It looks probable, that this Libra preference occured not just by accident.

For this reason I consider Libra as the dominant sign in the Minchiate arrangement, not Cancer and Moon.
Thanks Huck, this is very interesting.
It could well be that Libra was considered important enough to 'go first' in these different sequences.
That wouldn't change the fact that the Minchiate order was designed to pair up around the sign of Cancer.
In fact, it reinforces the idea that there should be pairing and Balance in the sequence.
The designer may have taken the concept of Libra and applied it more rigorously in the expanded suit of Majors.

Litlluw
RLG

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

13
RLG wrote,
Huck wrote: ↑
06 Dec 2020, 01:38
...I personally prefer to assume, that Libra+Aries and Cancer+Leo are the "4 against the other 8".

24 Libra
25 Virgo
26 Scorpio
------------
27 Aries
28 Capricorn
29 Sagittarius
------------
30 Cancer
31 Pisces
32 Aquarius
------------
33 Leo
34 Taurus
35 Gemini
Thanks for your considered reply, Huck.

I don't see how this chart is a 'solution' of the reasoning behind the order.
There is no consistency in the ordering of the signs that are close;
three are successive but in two different directions, one is not even successive (Virgo/Scorpio),
Cancer and Leo are rulerships of Moon and Sun, but what is the imperative for Libra and Aries?
There doesn't seem to be a pattern here other than pairing signs that are close in the zodiac,
but that doesn't mean a whole lot, especially when the four that separate them have no consistent relationship.

Litlluw
RLG
Yes, that was puzzling. It should have been Scorpio that was paired with Aries, both ruled by Mars (as Huck said in the sentence before the start of RLG's quote). Libra is out of place. I took Huck's reasoning as that as that the designer wanted to put the two signs with twins, Gemini (children) and Libra (pans) at the two ends, as he explained in the next post. Huck's last post gave another reason: Libra was in other such lists given first, for whatever reason. I hope that is what Huck meant. If I am wrong, I assume he will let us know.

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

14
Huck wrote: 06 Dec 2020, 00:38
I observe, that Libra and Germini are related to "twins", Libra has two scales and Gemini are anyway twins.
I see what you are getting at, but perhaps worth noting that in traditional astrology LIbra was NOT considered a Dual Sign [there is some debate about it in modern astrology]; the dual signs of traditional astrology are Gemini, Sagittarius & Pisces. [Libra is also unique among the signs in that it is represented by an inanimate object, the rest being considered either human [Gemini, Virgo, Upper half of Sagittarius and Aquarius] or bestial. BUT, perhaps our creator was not too knowledgable or concerned with the strict traditions of astrology, and the visual pattern of duality or a pairing was sufficient for the purpose...

Re: The pairs of signs that are adjacent in the zodiac: -

24 Libra
25 Virgo
------------
28 Capricorn
29 Sagittarius
------------
31 Pisces
32 Aquarius
------------
34 Taurus
35 Gemini

The thing that strikes me about these pairings of adjacent signs is that the first three of the four pairs follow clockwise, which is against the norm. This reminds me of Dante, whose zodiacal based temporal framework if I recall correctly also followed generally in the reverse direction. The fourth and last of the pairings breaks that pattern and the two adjacent signs, Taurus and Gemini, are paired in the normal [counter-clockwise] order; the break in the pattern, if intentional, perhaps serving to highlight them? In the context of Dante, I note that just as Gemini is the last of the signs here, so Gemini is the last of the signs directly referred to by Dante, in the sphere of the fixed signs in Paradisio. Dante enters the sphere of Fixed Stars in the constellation of Gemini [his birth sign].

"Here, the poet and his guide see the Virgin Mary and other Biblical saints including the apostles of Peter, John and James who test Dante on faith, love and hope."

According to the A. S. Kline translation:

"I saw that, since the hour when I had first looked down, I had moved through the whole quadrant, which Gemini, in the upper part of the first clima, or division of latitude, makes from noon to evening, so that I could see beyond Cadiz that foolish track Ulysses took, and, on this side, at evening, the near shore where Europa became the bull’s sweet burden."

Two things stand out to me here:

First, the bull referred to here is Zeus/Jupiter - but may infer indirectly to the sign Taurus, the bull - In Dante's Natal Horoscope his Sun is in Gemini, and Jupiter is in Taurus.

Second, the "foolish track that Ulsses took", one that Dante parallels with his own 'crazy journey' through the afterlife, is perhaps also one with which we may draw a parallel with our crazy ordering of the signs? : In which we find some hints of an order, but which breaks or diverts at various points - analogous to the foolish/mad wanderings of Ulysses and Dante.... an intentional dis-ordering of the zodiac, a device to represent a 'foolish track' ?

A sort of ciphered homage to Dante? Something perhaps not to surprising in a pattern with origins in Florence? But perhaps a bit too clever to credit !? Perhaps not so ciphered, the highest is simply that under which their greatest poet was born? Our journey through life is not direct, or orderly, like the signs of the Zodiac, but subject to diversions, byways and alleyways... it is not a direct highway, but a wandering track, like that of a fool or madman.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

15
SteveM wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 12:18 Second, the "foolish track that Ulsses took", one that Dante parallels with his own 'crazy journey' through the afterlife, is perhaps also one with which we may draw a parallel with our crazy ordering of the signs? : In which we find some hints of an order, but which breaks or diverts at various points - analogous to the foolish/mad wanderings of Ulysses and Dante.... an intentional dis-ordering of the zodiac, a device to represent a 'foolish track' ?

A sort of ciphered homage to Dante? Something perhaps not to surprising in a pattern with origins in Florence? But perhaps a bit too clever to credit !? Our journey through life is not direct, or orderly, like the signs of the Zodiac, but subject to diversions, byways and alleyways... it is not a direct highway, but a wandering track, like that of a fool or madman.
"Insofar as the twins, as stars, became known as the protectors of sailors (Ovid, Fasti 5.720), it is no coincidence that Dante uses his position in this constellation to compare and contrast his journey with Ulysses' voyage. Calling the ship's route a "mad course" (varco folle; Par. 27.82-83), Dante echoes Ulysses' characterization of the voyage as a "mad flight" (folle volo; Inf. 26.125) and reminds us that he initially feared that his own journey to the realms of the afterlife might itself be "folle" (Inf. 2.35)."

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/par ... stars.html
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

16
RLG wrote: 09 Dec 2020, 16:44

Thanks Huck, this is very interesting.
It could well be that Libra was considered important enough to 'go first' in these different sequences.
That wouldn't change the fact that the Minchiate order was designed to pair up around the sign of Cancer.
In fact, it reinforces the idea that there should be pairing and Balance in the sequence.
The designer may have taken the concept of Libra and applied it more rigorously in the expanded suit of Majors.
Both lot books with Libra as first zodiac signs have the quality, that there are 13 zodiac signs. 13 zodiac signs (or months) had been used in lunisolar calendars, 235 (= 12*19 + 7) months based on moon periods (29.53 days) had approxiately the length of 19 years ( also known as Metonic cycle .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle ). 7 of the 19 years have 13 months. As 13th zodiac sign Corvus was chosen in these lot book cases, in German translated as Rabe or Krähe (in English Crow).
Image


As the pictures shows, the star picture is close to Virgo and somehow between (or better close to) Virgo and Libra.
Image




In the actual lunisolar Hebrew calendar ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar ) this sentence is given: "AM 5781 began at sunset on 18 September 2020 and will end at sunset on 6 September 2021." The New Year in this system is arranged to fall in September, somehow in the region, when Libra starts in the usual astrology (c. 23 September). The Hebrew system had during the long time of its existence some changes, but it looks probable, that it was already similar in 14th/15th century (when the lot books were probably arranged). So the rough estimation, that this type of lot books had Jewish influences, has its chances to be true.

(The idea of "New Year" is very complicated in the Jewish calendar, one can become easily confused ....
New year

A shofar made from a ram's horn is traditionally blown in observance of Rosh Hashanah, the beginning of the Jewish civic year.
The Jewish calendar has several distinct new years, used for different purposes. The use of multiple starting dates for a year is comparable to different starting dates for civil "calendar years", "tax or fiscal years", "academic years", and so on. The Mishnah (c. 200 CE) identifies four new-year dates:

The 1st of Nisan is the new year for kings and festivals; the 1st of Elul is the new year for the cattle tithe... the 1st of Tishri is the new year for years, of the years of release and jubilee years, for the planting and for vegetables; and the 1st of Shevat is the new year for trees—so the school of Shammai; and the school of Hillel say: On the 15th thereof.[26]

Two of these dates are especially prominent:

1 Nisan is the ecclesiastical new year, i.e. the date from which months and festivals are counted.[27] Thus Passover (which begins on 15 Nisan) is described in the Torah as falling "in the first month",[28] while Rosh Hashana (which begins on 1 Tishrei) is described as falling "in the seventh month".[29] Since Passover is required to be celebrated in the spring, it should fall around, and normally just after, the vernal (spring) equinox. If the twelfth full moon after the previous Passover is too early compared to the equinox, a 13th leap month is inserted near the end of the previous year before the new year is set to begin. According to normative Judaism, the verses in Exodus 12:1–2 require that the months be determined by a proper court with the necessary authority to sanctify the months. Hence the court, not the astronomy, has the final decision.[30]
Nowadays, the day most commonly referred to as the "New Year" is 1 Tishrei (Rosh Hashanah, lit. "head of the year"), even though Tishrei is the seventh month of the ecclesiastical year. 1 Tishrei is the civil new year, and the date on which the year number advances. Tishrei marks the end of one agricultural year and the beginning of another,[31] and thus 1 Tishrei is considered the new year for most agriculture-related commandments, including Shmita, Yovel, Maaser Rishon, Maaser Sheni, and Maaser Ani.

The version with 22 objects is in a modified way part of the order of the 32 objects version. All 22 objects are part of the 32 objects, which has 10 more objects. There exist 2 versions of the 32-work, one from Olmütz (Olomouc, 200 km East of Prague) in Bohemia, the other from Heidelberg. The version of Olomouc has insecure notes, according which it might go back to the year 1327 (so I remember). The Heidelberg version is given to the begon of 15th century. From the 22-work exist 3 rather similar versions, 2 from 15th century and a printed version from 1520.
The arrangement of the 32-work objects looks rather chaotic, the arrangement of the 22-works looks sorted in 4 groups ...

1-13 zodiac signs
14-18 birds (=planets)
19-20 moon+sun
21-22 emperor+pope

The numbers 22 and 32 appear in the Sepher Yetzirah (32 ways of wisdom, 22 Hebrew letters). This increases the suspicion, that there was an Jewish influence om the production of these lot book texts.
The substructure ...
1-13 zodiac signs
14-18 birds (=planets)
... (see above) lead to an observation of the Minchiate objects (23 + (24 till 35))

Image



Card 23 ("Air" as an element) shows birds, which fly between stars (one has to look precisely to identify the stars), the 22-work has 5 objects (14-18), which show 5 different birds and which are meant as planets or "moving stars". 24-35 of Minchiate shows a zodiac with 12 zodiac signs, the 22-work has a zodiac with 13 signs. Without the info, that Air belongs to the 4 elements 20-23 in the Minchiate, one might think, that Minchaiate also deals with a 13-signs-zodiac.

In the general research of medieval lot book systems, there is the feature, that it momentary looks, as if there had been considerable much more German lot books than Italian lot books in 14th/15th century. The first big lot book success in Italy was Lorenzo Spirito in 1482 with a possible forerunner in 1473. Perhaps
the situation is clear, that at least some Italian lot book authors were probably inspired by German lot book editions. The 22-work, which we discussed already, had the basic structure 22x22x22x22, which means 22 Questions, 22 Kings, 22 Animals and 22 Prophets. The Lorenzo Spirito work from 1482 had a 20x20x20x20(x20) as basic structure, which were 20 Kings, 20 Prophets, and 2x20 "chaotic crazy collections" and possibly also 20 questions (which I've forgotten). The two "20 crazy collection objects" are the interesting parts. I note the first and the last signs first. It is a question of personal taste, what is Nr. 20 and what is Nr. 1.
collection 1: Nr. 20 Sole .... Nr. 1 Vergene
collection 2: Nr. 20 Sole ... Nr. 2 Virgo, Nr. 1 Libra

Image
That's "Vergene"
Image
That's "Virgo"
Image
That's "Libra"

With that we have in 4 different sources the feature "Libra as first sign in strange zodiac constructions", the common Minchiate is only one of them.

20. Sole ----------------------------- 20. Sole
19. Luna ---------------------------- 19. Saturno
18. Stella --------------------------- 18. Venus
17. Scorpione (zodiac) -------- 17. Marte
16. Grifone (Grifon)------------- 16. Luna
15. Core (Heart) ----------------- 15. Mercurio
14. Alicorno (unicorn) --------- 14. Tauro (zodiac ? )
13. Diamante --------------------- 13. Gemini (zodiac)
12. Pesscie (zodiac Pisces) --- 12 Montone (zodiac ?)
11. Bove (zodiac ? Bull) -------- 11. Sagittaro (zodiac)
10. Cancer (zodiac) -------------- 10. Aquario (zodiac)
9. Serena (Sirene in water) ----- 9. Aries (zodiac)
8. Cervio (stag) ---------------------- 8. Capricorno (zodiac)
7. Dragone (Dragon) -------------- 7. Cancer (zodiac)
6. Lione (zodiac Leo) -------------- 6. Scorpione (zodiac)
5. Cavallo (horse) ------------------- 5. Apollo
4. Cane (dog) ------------------------- 4. Christallina (heaven with stars)
3. Porco (pig) ------------------------- 3. Iove
2. Gallo (cock) ------------------------ 2. Virgo (zodiac)
1. Vergene (zodiac ? Virgo) ------ 1. Libra (zodiac)


*******************
Sources:

Lorenzo Spirito
The direct link to the Lorenzo Spirito work is lost. But I'd saved the older pdf. If somebody wants it, give me an email address.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442&hilit=spirito+lorenzo#p5691

Heidelberg edition (32-work)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=40#p15544
https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digli ... 001/thumbs

The 22-works are present in various editions
Start: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=9888#p9888
1. Fränkisches Losbuch (1425-50)
online: http://www.bildindex.de/document/obj00022941#|home
2. Lot book version of c. 1520, in Landshut printed by Johann Weißenburger
online: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1
3a. Bollstatter lot book collection (Cgm 312) ... between them a text with big similarities to 1. and 2.
online: https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en
Description of Cgm 312:
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 95_JPG.htm
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 96_JPG.htm
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

17
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: 06 Dec 2020, 00:38
I observe, that Libra and Germini are related to "twins", Libra has two scales and Gemini are anyway twins.
I see what you are getting at, but perhaps worth noting that in traditional astrology LIbra was NOT considered a Dual Sign [there is some debate about it in modern astrology]; the dual signs of traditional astrology are Gemini, Sagittarius & Pisces. [Libra is also unique among the signs in that it is represented by an inanimate object, the rest being considered either human [Gemini, Virgo, Upper half of Sagittarius and Aquarius] or bestial. BUT, perhaps our creator was not too knowledgable or concerned with the strict traditions of astrology, and the visual pattern of duality or a pairing was sufficient for the purpose...

To add to that point, it seems to me that Huck's schema does not depend on Libra being itself a sign of twins. Gemini - Twins, pairings - is just the theme of the way the signs are organized. In this schema, Aries and Libra are twins to each other: in the zodiacal 4 seasons they mirror each other, like the opposite arms of the solar swastika, Aries the first sign in the spring, starting March 21, and Libra the first sign of the autumn, starting Sept. 21.

In that context the relationship to Dante that Steve has amplified is very much to the point, as explaining the departure from the previous pattern that leads to Dante's sun sign.

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

18
Image
Adam and Eve as Gemini / lotbook 1520

Image
Adam and Eve as Gemini / Fränkisches Losbuch 1425-1450

Image
Lorenzo Spirito Gemini, also male/female


Libra in astrology is associated to the 7th house, and this is associated to marriage, partnership and harmony. I guess, it's acceptable, to relate Gemilni with Libra. Though, inside the Minchiate it seems, that Gemini was mostly presented with equal sex pictures.
Image
Image
Image
Image


******************

This page, ....
https://stephenbax.net/?p=1682
... at which also our friend Marko Ponzi participated, has various old Gemini pictures. Different sex isn't rare on them.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

19
The following diagram should help visualize my theory about the splitting of the Minchiate along the lines of the Golden Ratio.

Line four gives you the values of the card numbering.

Line one in light blue represents the whole 97 card deck. Imagine it stretches out to 97 units. The Moon card at number 37 is the golden ratio point of the full deck.

Line two in darker blue and yellow represents the 40 Majors; it is split into two groups consisting of 15 and 25 cards; this happens at the insertion point of the additional cards to the regular tarot, keeping the five highest cards at the end as the arie. The ratio of 15/25 = 3/5 = approximately the golden ratio

Line three represents the division of the two main sections (original vs. additional) into their own golden ratio sections.
The lower section of 15 cards is divided at card 10, the Chariot. This makes a 10/15 ratio, or 2/3, approximately the golden ratio
The upper section of 25 cards is divided at card 30, Cancer. This makes a 15/25 ratio, or 3/5, approximately the golden ratio

Line three shows that #10 and #30 are the equivalent golden ratio points of their sections, and they are used as the pivot points for pairs of cards that surround them. In the lower section those pairs have numbers that sum to 20; in the upper section those pairs have numbers that sum to 60.

I think this is strong evidence for intentional design. Then the question of why specific cards are paired becomes the next challenge.
RLG

Image
Minchiate ratios

Re: The Minchiate Zodiac Order

20
... hm ...

we have in Minchiate ...

20 number cards, which run from 1 till 10
20 number cards, which run from 10 till 1
20 standard trumps, trump 1-15 and 5 arie.
20 additional trumps, trump 16-35
which gives a 20x20x20x20-structure
------
16 court cards
1 Fool

We have near to the Minchiate (first known document 1466) a lot book of Lorenzo Spirito (possibly already in 1473, sure in existence 1482)
The lot book of Lorenzo Spirito has also a 20x20x20x20-structure

We have a German lot book type in early 15th century, which uses the structure 22x22x22x22 in different versions.
This lot book type is related to a lot book type with 32 objects.

In all 4 productions are zodiac objects and in all 4 the Libra sign is somehow Nr. 1 in the row of the zodiac signs.
Huck
http://trionfi.com