If you could ask three questions related to Tarot History, and have them answered with complete assurance that the answers were correct... what would your three questions be?

But there is a catch:
You can't ask Who created Tarot?, you can't ask When tarot was created?, and you can't ask Where tarot was created?

Off the top of my head, I think I'd ask:

1. What is the oldest pattern?
(see The Hermitage and Andy's Playing Cards )
Alright, this is already kind of cheating, in a way it asks where tarot was created.. but it's not being very exact is it? I might disqualify this question myself, but it is one I would try to get in. I personally lean towards the Southern Tradition and the Tarocco Bolognese.

2. What is the oldest Tarot de Marseille pattern, Tarot de Marseille I as typified by the Noblet and the Dodal; or Tarot de Marseille II as typified by the Chosson and the Conver?
I'm betting Tarot de Marseille I for many reasons, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

3. How did the Popess get into the deck?
There are lots of theories... Pope Joan, "Faith", "The Church", Sister Manfreda. I still think it might have originally been a second male Pope, but it is hard to justify that belief when considering how "quickly" the card became clearly female, as on the Visconti Sforza.

I've got a million others, but for now these three will do. What would your three questions be?

Why can't I ask those three?

No matter... if the first one were answered, I'd have a pretty good idea of the other two.

I'd ask "What is the original story?"

The overarching story is salvation, but what about the detailed order, that made those particular choices necessary?

Here's another one - did it go from courtly to popular, or popular to courtly? I tend to think the former, but if so, I'd really like to know when and where the first person to make a popular deck, or the first person to make a luxury, deck, did it.

Without "who, when and where" it's hard to come up with a third question... I like your Popess question, so I'll ask "What exactly does (did originally) the Star card mean?" Does it have anything to do with the "Fire" card, or is it a complete change of topic?

Once you start asking about specific cards in a hypothetical original order and design, you could ask lots.

Ross

I would ask:

Why?

Whose message is being conveyed? or What am I supposed to learn from these images?

As Ross, I would be very curious about Lestoille.



Best,

EE

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Why can't I ask those three?

No matter... if the first one were answered, I'd have a pretty good idea of the other two.

I'd ask "What is the original story?"

The overarching story is salvation, but what about the detailed order, that made those particular choices necessary?

Here's another one - did it go from courtly to popular, or popular to courtly? I tend to think the former, but if so, I'd really like to know when and where the first person to make a popular deck, or the first person to make a luxury, deck, did it.

Without "who, when and where" it's hard to come up with a third question... I like your Popess question, so I'll ask "What exactly does (did originally) the Star card mean?" Does it have anything to do with the "Fire" card, or is it a complete change of topic?

Once you start asking about specific cards in a hypothetical original order and design, you could ask lots.

Ross

Hi Ross,

Lovely to see you.

I ruled out the top three because I thought they would be too obvious and then what would we have left to ask?

I hoped to see something more diverse.. like your question about The Star and the "Fire" card. By "Fire" I'm assuming you are referring to what most people refer to as "The Tower"? I like the idea of referring to it as Fire, as that seems to be such an important aspect of it, at least certainly to the early historical tarots. You question makes some sense to me in that, I tend to see The Sun and The Moon as a natural pair, I also see the Devil and the Angel as a natural pair, the idea of the Star paired with the Fire is interesting. I can see Aquarius in The Star quite plainly (well... Tarot de Marseille Star at least), and as the waterbearer that would be a very good choice for a water symbol. Is there a constellation that represents fire that might be meaningful? Are Prometheus and Vulcan shown in the heavens perhaps?

Regarding the popular vs court issue, I remember when you tended towards popular and then switched to leaning toward thinking tarot developed in the courts (as most evidence tends to suggest, right?). I'm curious to know if you have a feeling which court these days? Personally, I'm still rooting for the common man.

On which model or models did Noblet base his deck?

There are too many indications in the deck that show that he based it on something earlier... but what/which/where?

From what kind of deck did the Sforza well 'World' card derive?

We all (or at least I presume all) assume that it comes from a deck very similar to a Tarot de Marseille-type deck... yet... I wonder, and would certainly like to see the full deck!

What is the relationship between the Cary Sheet and, on the one hand, the Visconti-type decks and, on the other, the Tarot de Marseille-type [I & II] (including the Besançon-type [I & II]) decks?

This would provide added historical meanderings of the tarot, including their ordering...

jmd wrote:On which model or models did Noblet base his deck?

There are too many indications in the deck that show that he based it on something earlier... but what/which/where?

From what kind of deck did the Sforza well 'World' card derive?

We all (or at least I presume all) assume that it comes from a deck very similar to a Tarot de Marseille-type deck... yet... I wonder, and would certainly like to see the full deck!

What is the relationship between the Cary Sheet and, on the one hand, the Visconti-type decks and, on the other, the Tarot de Marseille-type [I & II] (including the Besançon-type [I & II]) decks?

This would provide added historical meanderings of the tarot, including their ordering...

Very good questions sir.

I think the Sforza Castle cards are a goldmine. The World is very important to my own path of research, as are several of the pips without numbers and the Knight of Batons as well.

I think the Noblet is probably based on something else as well, that something would likely be similar in some ways to the deck the Dodal is based on, yet more differences. This is where that astronomical number that Dummett suggested of "over a million" decks in France in the 1600s comes into play... We've got just a couple to work with, and each one is very different! I wonder how much variety we may have lost?

I'd like to know their original purpose and how and when the purpose was transformed.

Robert said:
I think the Sforza Castle cards are a goldmine. The World is very important to my own path of research, as are several of the pips without numbers and the Knight of Batons as well.

I dreams to have pictures with enough definition of this cards as to make deeper investigations.

So one of my question is:

Anybody has such pictures ?? (or way to get them)

Yves

I would ask first for a detailed description of the rest of the Cary Yale sheet (the missing parts). (I hope this counts as a question)

I would ask if it really and truly is meant to be taken at face value (the sequence of the trumps), with zero hidden meanings?

I would ask how common it was to use these cards as something of an occult tool, ie in spells or readings, and when did that all start? (is that a second question piggy backing ...?)

1. If this is simply a sequentially progressive story of Christian salvation, why is it presented on movable cards, instead of in a fixed sequence of pages in a book?
1b. ....And why did you include pips with it?

2. Are the early decks Christian "theme" decks, presenting something else in a Christian context?

3. Woops. #1 used up two questions.