Phaeded wrote:Huck wrote: I personally think, that the Charles VI was arranged with 16 trumps...That's rather fixed in my head, cause of many details. You would need a lot of rather good arguments to change that, I would assume.
1. Only 1 of the Court CVI cards survived and yet ALL of the Trumps survived (making it the only hand-pianted deck with the complete set of trumps)? Please.
We have a complete description of the Boiardo deck and a complete description of the Michelino deck. We have a complete Sola-Busca Tarocchi.
Between the about 30 known decks from 15th century in larger Germany we have also some complete decks (Hofämterspiel; 5x14 deck of Master PW as examples, but there are more).
A "complete survival of a deck" is usually not rare against the many possibilities "complete minus 1, complete minus 2, complete minus 1, complete minus 3 etc.", but relative common.
In the case of the 16 trumps of Charles VI it's imaginable, that a buyer wished to have only trumps, but got a single normal card, a court card, for a decision, if he would buy also the courts and pips. As such they found their way to France. Possibly a French tourist.
A lot of cards are "handpainted", but on the base, that they were "preprinted". I think, I've read once, that the Charles VI belonged to this category.
2. The Wheel of Fortune is attested in the Brambilla, presumably lost in the related CY deck, and is in the PMB deck. Yet was excised out of the CVI....why???
Games of luck were accompanied by the wheel of fortune, Chess was proud, that it was a game of skill. I)f it was a Trionfi game Genre with some focus on chess, the missing Wheel of Fortune. In the reconstruction of Cary-Yale, which survived incomplete, there's also no good place for the wheel of Fortune.
3. Like the Wheel, the Empress is in the earlier hand-painted decks and her consort, the Emperor is present in the CVI....so again, why excised?
The Empress is generally rare in the Florentine decks.
4. There are two Ferrara archival sources that indicate a 14 trump/70 card deck, but no document anywhere indicating a 16 trump tarot deck (Marziano's was not tarot. In fact there is no evidence that anyone outside of Marziano/F.Visconti and his immediate circle, that he presumably played the game with, knew of that Greek gods/heroes deck until it was found during Sforza's encirclement of Milan in 1449, least of all Florence when it was bitterly opposed to Visconti during all of those previous years. Hell, even Sforza's circle didn't utilize the Marziano model in the PMB which follows close on the heels of the discovery of the Marziano text).
There are three Trionfi decks connected to a "16".
Michelino deck had 16 trumps.
Cary-Yale has 16 cards per suit. If one excepts, that a 5x14-structure preceded the later Tarot structure 4x14+22, then a deck with 5x16-structure looks logical, at least as an experiment.
The Charles VI has 16 surviving trumps, if complete or not not complete.
Further: The Cessolis text (c. 1300) led to many editions, often using a set of 16 pictures related to the 16 figures. As Chess had been very popular during 14th century (said to have been the second preferred book theme after the many versions of Bibles and the Apocalypse), one likely has to calculate hundreds of different works of art. A standard iconography, similar to Trionfi card motifs, once these were settled.
Further: John of Rheinfelden (1377) compared playing cards to Chess.
Further: Another modern "16" appeared with the many editions about geomancy during 14th century. 16 was also used in lot book structures.
Lots of decks in playing card history made something with Greek gods. Mostly used as court cards, for Tarot or Trionfi history it's not known, but that means actually "nothing", as we definitely know only a minor part of the complete productions during 15th century.
For playing card history we have the curious condition, that Dummett & co assumed a "nothing" for Trionfi decks
in Florence, and nowadays the Florentine development dominates all and everything thanks to the research energy of Franco Pratesi.
Franc Pratesi was sure about the relevance of Florence before he had access of the evidence, just as he (as an Italian) understood the basics of art production in Italy better than us.
These are not just good but rather excellent arguments based on the evidence of the contemporary comparables of surviving decks and archival records. There isn't an iota of evidence linking tarot to chess in Florence, Ferrara or Milan...and in the end that is the square peg (tarot) you are driving into a round hole (chess).
.... :-) ... one must be rather blind to take this position ... just my opinion, it's not meant personal
Chess was a dominant game, already about 400 years on the market in Europe. A naturally weak new game medium (playing cards) had the natural trend to imitate in its experiments already known structures, naturally not always, but at least occasionally. So for some decks one can't put this factor outside of the calculation.
We observe a lot of creativity in the about 30 surviving German deck forms, and we get a similar result, if we compare the different known Italian productions. A lot of creativity is "normal" in the question ... "crazy" is the idea, that one Trionfi version dominated all and everything.
As a lot of Tarot researchers come from the "Tarot corner", there's the far spread fixation just on this, "Tarot". This "must be" the oldest, the most important from begin on, etc.
This idea makes blind for the condition, that there's a general creativity in Trionfi festivities, in lot books, in other games and many other aspects.
