Just to get this out of the way bc you did not react to my question whether the "star counting" on the SB XXI turned out to your satisfaction ...







Adrian

3. [ ... ] The Cary Yale also shows a woman in the strength card but i still dont get it.

Again: When you throw a new subject like "The Cary Yale" into the discussion it would be polite to provide links with visual evidence of "the strength card" to make it easy for readers to get what you are talking about. I provided this content normally in my threads and comments already so that you could go there + copy the info to paste it here.

Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044

More specifically "The Cary Yale"
https://www.darktarot.com/the_oldest_tarot_deck.php

Even more specifically "the strength card" there ...



Thank you for understanding georgetrismegistos
- BUT you should really tell us what you ...

" ... still dont get ..."

Adrian

Continuing ... (edited!)

4. Ive been thinking about possibilities for the 9 pairs-18 cards.

[... ]

Similar assumptions + strategies that you came up with may very well have played a part in the thought process of the spectator.
Let's skip these assumptions + try to approach the situation like it presents itself here on this depiction - on this subject of the PMB V-S Tarot + the information we obtained so far in a logical + observant manner ...

16 squares.
The 16 Geomantic signs which hold all mathematical possible configurations concerning their construction.
A complete + finite model of our/this KNOWN reality.
On a (possible) "prayer rug" > A platform in THIS world for communication with THE other reality.

A pair of ANGELS. A secret MESSAGE. 2 x 9. An ANSWER to a prayer?
A VISION that is based on 8 + 1 behind a STRONG gate + 18 stars above.
FAR away – BEYOND ... (dark + unruly WATER ... not of THIS world probably ... )
NOT part of our everyday life + experiences – only the 2 angels could show it to us ...
... otherwise we would only see the rug – not even the HOLE would be there to be seen.

They are travelers between these 2 zones/places/spaces – otherwise we could not see them.
They tell us ABOUT this place – they SHOW it to us – they do NOT take us there.
We RECEIVE a VISION of a new possibility to LIVE beyond our known boundaries + customs.
If we want to REACH the city we would have to find a means to travel the water.

(The water theme plays a significant role in the Cary-Yale V Tarot sibling scene too ... )
https://www.darktarot.com/the_oldest_tarot_deck.php



There instead the means for travelling are depicted in several forms.

WHO now in the PMB V-S Tarot could possibly know about another “elevated” reality + might have the MEANS + the KNOWLEDGE to get there ...
The knowledge to CURE your longing heart – cure your hopeless despair – the tears of sorrow that you are bound to the shore ...

(The 9 pairs made from 18 are natives of the city + some have to be cut + assembled a-new ...
In the world that YOU know + live in/on is NO knowledge of these OTHERworldly possibilities.
YOUR world came from the finite model of the 16 - it is FIXED.
No way out is under your control + you must seek HELP if you want to travel to the island that you KNOW now EXISTS!
Beyond your UNDERSTANDING ... )

If you trust your most basic instincts you may find the solution to your problem when you have another LOOK at the 22 + even the 16 should hold it already because 1 square is among them + stands out.

The solution presents itself as a signal to your/the spectators weary eyes.


You end your 4th point with

4. [ ... ]

-Another idea is the enneagram, a sufi symbol. Not sure what to make of it yet.

Why + in what context would you mention the Enneagram - that you refer to as a "a sufi symbol" here?

My eyes are weary now too

Adrian

Continuing …

5. In the link about Rubaiyat-e-Ganjifa viewtopic.php?p=21328#p21328
that you gave earlier, you also link to a pdf with irreligious verses in the masnavi https://aalequtub.files.wordpress.com/2 ... verses.pdf
My first thought was, these people (who wrote the pdf) only think their religion is worthwhile, and they reject anything that gives any value to anything else.
As i continued reading, my thoughts changed to, these westerners shamelessly modify ancient texts for their own agenda.

I only provide facts here that throw some light on the situation I found so that you + every other reader can catch up. Translating Arabic texts + even more so poems - into English is a very difficult task that comes with a lot of obstacles + cultural baggage – so don't be too judgemental on BOTH parties.

Later you say
Remember the supposedly wrong Rumi quote ...
"We have picked the essence of the Koran, throwing away the skin to the dogs."
Take it now as a “working hypothesis” that only the first 78 surahs are of importance for the much later conception of the Tarot.
I think you mean that the first 78 surahs are the essense of the Koran, and the rest is the skin to throw to the dogs, and that these fake verses in Masnavi are not (all?) fake. Curiously the verses after 78 are really short, so by removing them you dont miss much of the books volume. Just like throwing away the skin to the dogs, and keeping the bones and marrow.

Indeed: This supposedly wrong Rumi quote would be considered a blasphemy – but other Sufis have been accused of such in other contexts too + died for it under torture (Al-Hallaj - 26 March 922 CE for ex.)

When I began to look into this matter under the assumption that there should be proof for this “essence/dog food” model in the Qur'an itself (knowing about the different editions which are considered a No-No by mainstream Muslimin) I was quite amazed by the title of the 79th surah An-Naziat – bc there are several English translations for this name: “Those Who Drag Forth” - “Soul-Snatchers” - “The Pluckers” - “ The Snatchers” “ Those That Rise” ...

All of them come with the flavor of “Up – up + away”.

The first 78 surahs are tied to the 78 cards (Tarot de Marseille) Tarot decks.
In the surahs after 22 – so from 23 to 78 is a definite order of the 10 Pip-cards + the Court for all 4 suits.
Every time starting with the 1/Ace – 2 - 3 - 4 – 5 - 6 – 7 - 8 – 9 – 10 - Jack – Knight - Queen – King.
The interesting thing is that there were always different schools on what the meaning of the Pips + the Court cards in divination is based.

http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index ... 50435.html

https://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob52.htm

Here now you can see that the proposed meaning has nothing to do with odd or even – there is NO moral value connected to the numerical value of a pip card – the moral/meaning of the pip card is tied to the PLACE between the 78 surahs + the content that is stored THERE.

The order of the 4 suits instead is different from the popular opinions.
The order of the Qur'an suggests that the suits start with

14 CUPS. (Surah 23 – The Believers)
[with the meaning of achieving everlasting bliss in this world as well as in the Hereafter.]
1 - … - 10 – J – K – Q – King.

14 SWORDS (Surah 37 – The Rangers)
[with the meaning of trained soldiers]
1 - … - 10 – J – K – Q – King.

14 CLUBS (Surah 51 – The Scatterers)
[with the meaning of dispersing with brutal force]
1 - … - 10 – J – K – Q – King.

14 COINS (Surah 65 – Divorce)
[with the meaning of financial freedom for the woman]
1 - … - 10 – J – K – Q – King.

Maybe I will come up with a complete comparative list of the first 78 surahs + the 78 cards sometime - but you should really have a look for yourself in advance … + be amazed when you find for ex. that the surah 8 (The Bounties/The Spoils of War) deals with in God's eyes justified shares …
Surah 9 (The Repentance) is very easy on the eyes as VIIII – LERMITE (The Hermit – quite the personification of repentance )

LEFOV dances along – in line with The Prophets in surah XXI (!) on the 21st place …

23 Al-Mu’minoun (the Believers) should be the Ace of Cups ...
37 As-saffat should be Ace of Swords right? And 51 Adh-Dhariyat should be Ace of Wands.

YES – you got that right. I explained the "why“ already above.
But thank you for this contribution.
Please explain HOW you came to that conclusion!?

30 Ar-Rum (the Romans) is about the importance of remembering - so that the future may be revealed - similar to the assumption that the 6 of Cups refers to the past and the consequences in the present ...
And shouldnt 30 be Eight of Cups? Or are they not in perfect order?
The pips are not easy to connect to some meaning since they just show shapes, how would one approach this problem?

Correct again! I made a deliberate mistake there to see if you look for yourself.
Surah 30 (The Romans/The Greeks) refers to the loss of the Byzantines (who were of Greek heritage but represented the eastern part of the Roman empire) to the Persians in 613/14 CE.
The 1. sentence says „The Romans/Greeks/Byzantines have been defeated“
All these 3 connotations are CODE for „Righteous Believers“ bc at that time they were considered „People of the Book“ = Christian + bc Muhammad the Prophet had just begun preaching in 610 they had not had a fair chance to convert to Islam.
In that battle against the Persians (who were considered disbelievers with their Zoroastrianism) the Christians were looked at as a kind of poorer stepbrothers of the Muslimin + the favored champions – but they lost ...

So they WALKed AWAY from their goal of winning …
This is depicted nicely in the Rider Waite Tarot by Pamela Coleman Smith + she does some good other symbolic impersonations that you might helpful with identifying the part of the concerned text.

http://www.albideuter.de/html/waite.html

The surah instead repeats several times after this that the Righteous Believers stay firm in their belief and stay the course in their actions …
The Byzantines went to war with the Persians again 10 years later – but in ANOTHER land.
That is what some Tarot card readers would probably align with the up-side-down or inverted appearance in a reading.

Enough now for today.

Adrian

Continuing …

6.
obviously bc AEW also swapped VIII & XI without any real reason other than his own personal ones which he kept a secret.
According to Paul Foster Case, his (Waite's) reason was astrological. By putting Strength on 8 you have Leo, followed by Virgo/Hermit as 9. 10 would be connected with planet Jupiter and a double hebrew letter, then 11 Justice/Libra so you create a chain of successive Zodiac signs. This system of connection (with hebrew letters, zodiacs, planets and letter words) does not seem coherent overall to my eyes, some connections-explanations seem very weak or non existent.
You may be implying that AEW swapped the cards for another reason altogether.

Again: I'm just providing factual information here – otherwise no Paul Foster Case would have had to explain WHAT AEW did when he changed the numerals + so the places in the succession of The Great Secrets of his own Tarot deck + WHY AEW did it.

Paul Foster Case may be correct in these astrological musings – but they are not AEW's statements.

My opinion on AEW's swapping initiative of 2 cards is that this thought was triggered by a nebulous information that there was something not right with the succession of the 22 Great Secrets that he may have heard through his Martinist contact ...

((I talked about the relations between esoteric (Masonic + Rosicrucian foremost) groups + orders quite a bit to Huck in "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" + I pointed at the Saracen/Muslim involvement in western science + culture already a lot ... ))

So AEW tried to make sense of this splintered information + came up with the swap of which he said that it had purely personal reasons – not interesting for anyone else what obviously is a horrible course of action when his intend to REFORM the TAROT was indeed serious (what he undoubtedly WAS!!)

But he was/is wrong!
The information that some Great Secrets are not appearing correctly is real though.

When you compare the pictures of the Tarot de Marseille + PMB V-S Tarots you'll find sometimes a change of direction in movement from left to right or vice versa.
This makes sense when you look into the layout in TRUE TAROT.

In the PMB V-S Tarot our observed object in this topic is 1 of the suspicious depictions.
You must be aware though that no names or numerals happen to be seen – only the shape of the scene.

Now: what scene in the Tarot de Marseille is most congruent with this SHAPE?










Sooo ... the picture changed the CARD – 2 Great Secrets are involved – BUT their NUMERALS are completely correct

Adrian

Waite's reason was the teachings of the Golden Dawn, first given in the anonymous Cipher Manuscript (consensus says Kenneth Mackenzie).

The Cipher Manuscript author placed Tarot according to the Sefer Yetzirah Hebrew letter-astrological and elemental correspondences, and came out with Leo and LIbra as Justice and Strength, which seemed wrong on the face of it, by the imagery. So it justified a switch of the places of the cards by appeal to an otherwise unattested ancient Egyptian tradition:

"VIII Justice = [Lamed] and [Libra]
And XI Strength = [Teth] and [Leo] which
causeth a transposition
for these are cognate symbols
but at one time the sword of
Justice was the Egyptian
knife symbol of the sickle
of Leo while the scales
meant the [Sun] having
quitted the balance point
of the highest declination.
To the female and the lion
gave the idea of [Libra] repressing the
fire of Vulcan ([Saturn] in [Libra]
exalted. But earliest was
the lion goddess to [Leo] and Ma
to [Libra] with her scales. And this
is better."
(fols. 54-55; words in [brackets] are symbols in the original document)

Cipher Manuscript, pages 54-55 (the quote above is the last 2 lines of 54 and the first 16 of 55):
http://hermetic.com/gdlibrary/cipher/
Excerpted from a post here, discussing Crowley's own reasoning for his switch of Tzaddi and Heh (but not Aquarius and Aries, which stay with the cards):
viewtopic.php?t=863#p12550

Hello Adrian
I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to reply to my questions and i thank you for your patience concerning my shortcomings.

The 2 angels are identified as POPULUS ( = people bc they are 2)
The 1 OTHER angel (as in ALONE + on his WAY) is identified as VIA - have a look please.
LAETITIA has no business here bc it already identified elsewhere - have a look please.

Oops! I see i mistyped world as via instead of populus, while i already know the geomantic associations really well. Sorry for the confusion i created.
---------------------

Just to get this out of the way bc you did not react to my question whether the "star counting" on the SB XXI turned out to your satisfaction ...

Sorry for the omission.
I thought the picture is very obvious and your question was more rhetorical. I was also silently respecting your wish here

But the SB Tarot is not the subject here + I suppose we can lay this to rest for now?

---------------------

BUT you should really tell us what you ... " ... still dont get ...

What i didnt get is why this strength card (Tarot de Marseille and Cary Yale) has a woman who destroys the geomantic model. But then you said

I'did not find evidence for a structure or system based on the 16 geomantic characters in the historic Tarot de Marseille Type II decks I studied - instead the best ones + here especially the "said « ARNOULT 1748 » ... hold hints to the system of 18 in 9 pairs that we are in the process of establishing now.

So OK i get it now
---------------------

YES – you got that right. I explained the "why“ already above.
But thank you for this contribution.
Please explain HOW you came to that conclusion!?

Well, you already had pointed out which one is the ace of cups and king of coins, so i just made a list following the logical order 1-10 JKQK. Just 2 suits were missing to be identified. Surah 37 felt more like swords to me and 51 more like wands but it was just intuition and it looks like i got lucky.
---------------------

Sooo ... the picture changed the CARD – 2 Great Secrets are involved – BUT their NUMERALS are completely correct

This is fascinating!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now getting back to the main subject

Let's skip these assumptions + try to approach the situation like it presents itself here on this depiction - on this subject of the PMB V-S Tarot + the information we obtained so far in a logical + observant manner ...

Im still pondering this problem. It is quite hard.
As i understand geomancy is a complete model for this reality, so it cant help us there, in the other world. We need a totally different system.
Im not really sure what the angel's message 2x9 could point to, except that there are nine new pairs.

WHO now in the PMB V-S Tarot could possibly know about another “elevated” reality + might have the MEANS + the KNOWLEDGE to get there ...

The popess is a bridge between this world and the other, you have said something along these lines elsewhere. She has the book of knowledge.

The 9 pairs made from 18 are natives of the city + some have to be cut + assembled a-new ...

I understand that some pairs will remain but in a new system, some new pairs will be formed.

If you trust your most basic instincts you may find the solution to your problem when you have another LOOK at the 22 + even the 16 should hold it already because 1 square is among them + stands out.

The only square i see stand out is the tub in judgement, and its pink like the castle. God has the means and knowledge to get me there?

Hello Ross G. R. Caldwell.

Thank you for your valuable contribution!

So there is believable proof that AEW might have based his decision to swap VIII + XI on an elaborate fake news story from the archives of The Golden Dawn that was intentionally stiled like it came originally from Egypt – which was Muslim territory since practically forever – to infuse some credibility into a coded manuscript.

Exactly my point!

Adrian

I noticed an interesting coincidence on some of the cards. Some of them feature a patch of land with a cliff. The cards: star, moon, sun, temperance. Also death but it is not as emphasized, and this one has blue mountains unlike the other ones.
There is of course this cliff around the patch of land that makes up the island on "The world" and I have to wonder, does this signify something?

WHO now in the PMB V-S Tarot could possibly know about another “elevated” reality + might have the MEANS + the KNOWLEDGE to get there ...

It is also interesting how the woman in "star" has the same blue dress with stars decoration as "temperance".
"Temperance" and "strength", as a pair on the geomantic model, have their connection emphasized with their clothes colors. Red shoes/socks and arms, and a blue outfit.
"Star" has different shoe color and a cloth that is half covering the arms which may be de-emphasizing them? And the arms are fully blue.
"Moon" has the colors reversed and no shoes.
Is this a signal that those 4 cards are on the island? Sun, moon, star and temperance (also as stars on this layer)?
We could say they are in an elevated reality, and people have been obsessing over astrology for millennia.

georgetrismegistos wrote: 06 Jan 2024, 19:06
It is also interesting how the woman in "star" has the same blue dress with stars decoration as "temperance".
"Temperance" and "strength", as a pair on the geomantic model, have their connection emphasized with their clothes colors. Red shoes/socks and arms, and a blue outfit.
"Star" has different shoe color and a cloth that is half covering the arms which may be de-emphasizing them? And the arms are fully blue.
"Moon" has the colors reversed and no shoes.
Is this a signal that those 4 cards are on the island? Sun, moon, star and temperance (also as stars on this layer)?
We could say they are in an elevated reality, and people have been obsessing over astrology for millennia.

i think of the “Portrait of Charles V on horseback” of titian,“The red of the sash and the horse's caparison symbolize the Catholic faith”,Our Lady 、saint、and jesus also use the red and blue ，mean nature and divine nature？ I'm not sure ，but it must be about the faith or religion，I thought about it again the Dante， Hercules——Samson——jesus，may be relevant？