mikeh wrote: 02 Apr 2019, 01:51
Thanks. Since I can't correct the Timeline that appears on Aeclectic, due to that site's closure, I will have to put it and your updates on a blog. I haven't done that yet, at least not the full version that is on Aeclectic.
I was thinking of the timeline on your blog, hadn't checked whether it was the last updated version, but assumed it was.
As far as translations: Julia Orsini's text, I have, besides scans of the copy at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas, what seems to be a revised version of the same book, together with an English translation, iin the Little White Book that goes with the Dusserre edition of the Grand Etteilla III - thus worth getting if only for that reason.
I have the revised 1850's version, but not the original 1838.
D'Odoucet's synonyms,, at least as copied by Papus, appear in his Tarot Divinitoire, which Stockman translated into English. Papus mentions his source in his introduction. Oddly they vary considerably from those in Orsini. I would have expected both to be that of d'Odoucet, since d'Odoucet is recorded by the Gendarmerie to have violated his parole in 1809 by journeying without permission to Lisle, where Miss Orsini (then probably Simon Blocquel's father-in-law) resided. Either d'Odoucet revised his list or one of them is not his, but Jejalel's. I assume that d'Odoucet's original lists are in his Science of Signs, vol. 3, which neither of us has. I have what I think are those in Papus, in French, in another book, Le Tarot Egyptien, ses symboles, ses nombres, son alphabet: comment on lit le tarot: l'Oeuvre d'Etteilla restituee, by Elia Alta, 1922.
I don't have the Alta, but believe it is basically a copy of d'Odoucet, volume 2? The synonyms appear in Volume 2, which I have. I believe there were some complaints about Jejalel's version, according to one of Etteilla's students some of his synonyms he didn't agree with and others were in the wrong place (so perhaps the source for the reversal of birth/fall on the ace of batons in some later decks?). [d'Odoucet too makes an error of reversing a keyword on his own deck.]
As I recall it d'Odoucet was under order to remain in Lille, which he did for several years, and disappeared when the mayor issued a warrant for his arrest (possibly for violating his parole by travelling outside
of Lille?). It is possible his catalogue did come into the possession of Castiaux-Blocquel, also of Lille. I don't think he (nor they) had possession of the original plates however. His own deck was a fairly faithful re-drawing of the original with the exceptions I listed in my above post, not printed from the original plates. The closest Etteilla Type I decks to the Basan plates produced in the 19th century are those of the anonymous 1800-1860 (a copy of which I see was sold at a Paris auction in October last year, the BM copy up to then being the only one I was aware of). These match very, very closely to those produced by Hussey and Grimaud c1890's (I suspect the catalogue of the anonymous publisher must have come into the hands of Grimaud, via Hussey or Lequart & Mignot). The only difference to the Basan prints, which I take to be an accurate reflection of the original plates, is with the addition of the number 78 on the fool, the rays from the driving point on the first trump, which with the yellow colouring make it look like a sunburst - I wonder if these were added to the original plates at some point? edited to add: And just remembered - the clothing of the nude figures on the devil card.
Etteilla's last short work of reminiscences is in the LWB that goes with the Petit Etteilla, in French and English (but without any indication that that is what it is, other than that it is by Etteilla). It also contains, in both languages, a "Treatise on Dreams and Visions According to the Egyptians and Persians," which gives short interpretations for various subjects that might appear, in alphabetical order. Could that be the same treatise on dreams that you mentioned?
Could be, a lot of Trismegiste's text(s) are straight copies of Etteilla or Gebelin/Mellet.
The only texts I have that went with the Petit Etteilla are:
The one the BnF attributes to Alliette and erroneously date 1780-1820 - it is later, printed c1829 - 1838 - but is the same as the text that went with earlier editions.
The one that went with the Gueffier, c1802 and later editions, and the one that went with the 1796 saint-saveur. I'm sure I had a 1791 (by Ettiella?) too, but can't find it now (I lost all my old copies of Etteilla material I had collected, but have managed to track most of the down online again) - and am perhaps confusing it with something else.
A problem with doing a new edition of the cards, besides the work involved, is that Lo Scarabeo recently put out an edition based on a copy they have. I haven't seen it. It is already sold out, I think, but they will surely reprint it. There is no denying the demand. And Cartes France's edition is still in print, even if it is not historically accurate in its keywords and in card 1, with its sunburst.
There certainly does seem to be a growing interest, and plenty of competition among our professional card-makers to meet the demand. As a commercial venture, I doubt it is one from which one might expect to profit from - but I'd be happy if it recouped the costs, which is perhaps unlikely if one includes the cost of one's time - better would be, given evidence for such a demand, one of our professional card manufacturers might be persuaded to produce a deck based upon the Basan prints - though they might deem too, that it is already being sufficiently met, albeit if not quite to the original model. Perhaps if someone with a love of historical reproductions like Giordano Berti with card publishing experience was interested it might be achievable.
Actually, an edition that uses the 1788 illustrations is not strictly speaking accurate, since the cards were produced by a different process and contained the various words and numbers, only some of which could be verified by comparison with Depaulis's set of original cards.
I am not sure what you mean by the cards being produced by a different process. I think they would have been printed from the same plates the sheets were, with the same text and numbering - unless you mean the printed colouring process v, hand-painted? Those that I have seen from the Depaulis collection (of 40 or 41 cards?), mostly in B&W (copied from Wicked Pack of cards), but some in colour (courtesy of Kenji) match the Basan plates, including the text and numbers - the colouring is poor in comparison with the hand water-colouring of course, as one would expect from the limitations of the colour printing processed used. I haven't seen and don't know whether Depaulis has the fool among those he possesses - so don't know whether the actual printed deck had that number 78 on it. I think it would be as accurate to that envisioned by Basan/Etteilla as is possible (presuming there were no engraver's errors on the original plate). The Basan sheet itself includes an advert for the sheets themselves, in B&W or in colour, in sheet form or as a set of 78 coloured cards
- with the Basan sheets as model, any set produced would perhaps be more accurate to that (presumably hand) coloured set, than the colour-printed set they were later able to produce at that time.
By Etteilla in French, there are a few minor works you have not listed: his comments on Hisler's method for the lottery, a letter by an admirer (I suspect written by Etteilla himself); I have these. I do not have his "zodiaque" or his works on palmistry and 'metaposcopy' (physionomy) (Wicked Pack p. 88)...[/i].
I don't have the Hisler or the letter. The zodiac I think I've seen online somewhere and so can probably track down, same with his alchemy text - I don't know about the others (the palmistry and metaposcopy). It wasn't in my head to translate his complete works however, just the tarot ones and perhaps the petit ettiella, at least to start with
But nonetheless would like to have and read them, in as much as they may help in understanding his tarot writings, references and sources better. My own French is sufficient to tidy up a google translation and make sense of it (with a little research into archaic words or obscure idiomatic expressions), which is fine for my own purposes, and perhaps for sharing on a blog or in a pdf to anyone interested in Etteilla without expectation or requirements of a professional translation, and understanding there may be errors and some points of confusion. Hardly sufficient though I think for a commercial enterprise - I think that would require a bi-lingual French editor/translator.
For the purpose of card readers, I am not sure how helpful Etteilla's own Cahiers would be, I suspect many a reader would be left more confused than enlightened with an understanding of how to read his deck - something more akin to d'Odoucets Science of Signs volumes 1 & 2 might be better in that respect. The Cahiers are possibly of more interest to the historically minded with an interest in the sources and development of cartomancy and the esoteric tarots. Some of the later interpreters, the likes of 'Julia Orsini' [Simon Blocquel], are often very literal and veer from the silly to the scary; many of them like Orsini weren't readers at all, but hack authors/publishers (but nonetheless of interest to the extent of how they have drawn upon original material). Some of the interpretations of the Polish Sybille 'Perenna' are so silly and hilarious they verge on parody (which was quite likely intended to be if, as is likely, Collin de Plancy was the real author), but was nonetheless used almost verbatim in the LWBs that accompanied some of the Grimaud editions (some others are derived from Orsini).