Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

51
Sorry for the late reply. I had some things to take care of.

I have two editions of the "Julia Orsini". One is an undated book that also contains black and white images of the cards, an engraving of Mlle. Orsini, etc. The other, in both French and English, is part of the LWB to Dusserre's edition of the Grand Etteilla III, which I only know is "Julia Orsini" because it is very close but not identical to the book. I assume it is later than the book. It seems to be the version that Waite had, judging by his word-lists. Perhaps he did the translation reproduced by Dusserre. Tell me which it is that you need. I can give samples of the different wordings in the two editions if you wish.

Your second post after mine deals with card 61, is about the number symbolism, something I am definitely interested in. Where does this quote from Etteilla come from? I do not recognize it. Also, do we know what keywords were on the original card? The card you have a picture of is an English translation..

In the 3rd Cahier Etteilla writes of card 61, upright (from http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=180963):
Nº. 61. le 3. Religieuse (*16).
___________
*16. Chez les Egyptiens, on ne recevait pour Vestales que celles dont la nature était informe; ce qui était très-rare.

(Nº. 61. the 3. Nun (*16).
___________
*16. The Egyptians received as Vestals only those whose nature was unshaped; that was very rare.)
And reversed:
Nº. 61. le 3. Effet égaré (19)
______________
(19) Effet; papier, bijoux, ne sont point perdus; mais seulement égarés.

(Nº. 61. the 3. Confused appearance [Effet égaré] (19).
______________
(19) Appearance [Effet, literally “effect"]; papers and jewels are by no means lost, but only mislaid.)
"Bewilderment" is an acceptable translation of "Egarement". "Estrangement" is of course not a translation of "Religieuse" but rather of "Eloignment" (a better translation would be "Separation" or "Removal"), the keyword that appears on the 19th century French versions of the card (Grand Etteilla I, II, III). It would seem that "Religieuse", surely referring to a cloistered nun, was too specific.

The versions of the Grand Etteilla I that I have seen invariably have a sunburst on card 1; hence they are by way of D'Odoucet. I do not know if Depaulis's deck has this card, to verify what was on the original card. It is not pictured in Wicked Pack. For the 3 of Swords, the text of Wicked Pack has "Separation" only (p. 94), not bothering with the Reversed. They do not say where they get this, whether from Depaulis's deck or some other source.
Image

My hypothesis about the keywords is that they are related to the Sola-Busca version of the card, the heart stabbed by three swords with a wreath underneath, which in turn is related to 14th-15th century paintings of St. Augustine's vision of the Trinity, which showed three shafts of light directed at Augustine's heart, emanating from a vision, sometimes of three heads, sometimes a vision of Jesus on a cross (thus meeting the Franciscan competition). See my blog post at http://neopythagoreanisminthetrot.blogs ... hrees.html.

I tend to think the keywords are an underground historical product spanning three centuries and have nothing to do with Etteilla's or his followers' feeble ad hoc explanations. However I am willing to give them a try.

Re: theme JGSS: Collection to Etteilla followers

52
Huck wrote: 13 Jan 2017, 12:40 In this thread once I found (December 2015) a Petit Etteilla deck in British Museum:
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=45 ... tcount=356
Object type print playing-card

Museum number: 1896,0501.715.1-32
Description: Incomplete piquet pack with 31 of 32 playing-cards for cartomancy (Etteilla), plus one extra card

Hand-coloured etching
Backs: plain
Circa 1789-1804
Producer name: Published by: St Sauveur
School/style: French
Date: 1800 (circa)
Production place: Paris(Europe,France,Ile-de-France (département),Paris)
Dimensions: Height: 78 millimetres Width: 54 millimetres

Each card has in its centre a representation of a smaller card surrounded by various words and numbers. The pack has one extra card with "No. 1 Etteilla ou le Questionant" which bears the address "Chez le Cen. (citoyen) St Sauveur, Rue Nicaise...a Paris".

Curator's comments: This pack is similar in character to 1896,0501.709. That it was made during the period surrounding the Revolutionary War is evident by St Sauveur's title of 'Citizen' .The missing card is the ace of diamonds.
This has now been digitized and is viewable online here:

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 1-715-1-32

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

53
Wonderful, Steve. And good to hear from you. (I have myself been avoidingreading THF for a week or two, so that I can finish some other projects.) I have been wanting to see that card with "citoyen" on it for a while. As usual, they have not updated their bibliographic information. The best discussion is in Decker, Depaulis and Dummett, 1996, who say "last years of the 18th century" for it and correctly do not attribute it with certainty to Saint-Sauveur, only with high probability, giving their very good reasons. See DDD p. 274, note 62, and p. 275, note 65, which, somewhat confusedly, has a little more. I attach these pages as well as the pages that these are notes to, p. 96 and 98 (although they do not say what particularly applies to the BM's images).


Re: Collection to Etteilla followers

54
mikeh wrote: 02 Aug 2012, 21:32
Someone of the times--I expect Etteilla--seems to have printed, or reprinted, this "Lettre sur l'Oracle du Jour", because I have a copy, thanks to Andrea. It is undated. Half of the document is a letter by the "Le Marquis D**", in which the quote from Etteilla, p. 4, appears, I assume as reported by his wife, the Marquise. The other half of the document, by the "La Duchesse De ***", spends considerable time discussing the recently published work of Etteilla's, La Zodiaque Mysterieux, and its prognostications. This work, of course, was published in 1772. The two letters are mostly gossip of the times, but do contain praise of Etteilla's gifts. The document might well be a fabrication, although I did not detect any obvious anachronisms,
This document has been digitised and is available here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k320408b

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

55
There is some new material to the theme at the thread ...
New Book: Theory and Practical Instruction on the Book of Thoth
viewtopic.php?p=25592#p25592

****************** Some other findings

Neu durchgesehenes Verzeichniss der verbothenen deutschen Bücher
1816 - 350 pages
A big list of forbidden German books in the year 1816

page 177
Image

https://books.google.de/books?id=OrJfAA ... ig&f=false
Kenntniss (Höhere) des Geheimnisses, aus der
Karte sich zukünftige Ereinisse vorherzusagen,
3te und letzte Fortsetzung. Nebst einem
Anhange die Berechnung des Herrn v. Hisler,
Leipzig und Prag.
translation
Knowledge (higher) of the secret to predict future events for yourself from the cards,
3rd and final continuation. Besides one
attachment with the calculation of Mr. v. Hisler,
Leipzig and Prague.
********************

Wilhelm von Archenholz
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wi ... Archenholz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wi ... Archenholz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva_(German_magazine)

Minerva: ein Journal historischen und politischen Inhalts, Band 1
publisher J.F. Unger, 1792
https://books.google.de/books?id=IksMAA ... la&f=false
Contains the article ...
3. Oeffentliche Vorlesung in Paris über die Magie (page 469).
... which introduces Etteilla and gives a translated Etteilla lesson in German language
According Archenholz the lesson was given at 1st of July 1790, when the school for Magic was opened.
I don't know, if this lesson exists in French language.

*************************

I found ...

The History of the Occult Tarot - Page xvi
Ronald Decker, ‎Michael Dummett · 2013
FOUND INSIDE – PAGE XVI
In 1783, Etteilla's disciple Hisler, who carried on a professional fortune-telling practice in Berlin, published at Leipzig a German translation of Etteilla's Cours théorique et pratique du livre de Thot, with copper-engraved ...

Somehow I see a contradiction. Baumgärtner, the publisher in Leipzig, started his business in 1792 and the production of the German cards is given to 1793 (that's also in DDD).
Or is there another German publisher in Leipzig before? 1783 ? Typo ?

**************************

THE PRINCE DE LIGNE.HIS MEMOIRS, LETTERS, AND MISCELLANEOUS PAPERS.
Selected and transIated BY KATHARINE PRESCOTT WORMELEY. WITH INTRODUCTION AND PREFACE BY C.-A. SAINTE-BEUVE AND MADAME DE STAEL-HOLSTEIN.
IN TWO VOLUMES. Vol. I. BOSTON: HARDY, PRATT & COMPANY. 1902.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 038%29.pdf
I have always regretted that I paid too little attention to the predictions of the great Etteilla. When that sorcerer arrived in Paris, I took the Duc d'Orleans to see him, on the fourth floor of a house in the rue Fromenteau. He knew neither of us. He talked to the duke of thrones, revolutions, Versailles, the royal family, and many surprising matters, to which my want of confidence prevented me from attaching value. I only remember those things confusedly, but I am persuaded that they turned the duke's head. Fatal result of my imprudence, if that were so ! Etteilla was not a mere vulgar fortune-teller, nor the deluder of credulous women; on the contrary, the most intelligent persons consulted him. He depicted before the eyes of Mme. de Mérode a state bed on which lay the body of her husband, who was then in perfect health, in a room and surrounded by persons unknown to Etteilla ; all of which came true in a fortnight. He announced to me that I should die seven days after hearing a great noise. I am still expecting it ; but as I have, in the meantime, heard the noise of two sieges and the explosion of two magazines, I think that he must have been mistaken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-J ... e_of_Ligne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Phi ... of_Orléans
???? https://man8rove.com/fr/profile/6a9rusa ... -de-merode .... lost her first husband in 1773, which doesn't fit with the "revolutions"
Last edited by Huck on 11 Feb 2023, 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

56
Huck wrote,
I found ...

The History of the Occult Tarot - Page xvi
Ronald Decker, ‎Michael Dummett · 2013
FOUND INSIDE – PAGE XVI
In 1783, Etteilla's disciple Hisler, who carried on a professional fortune-telling practice in Berlin, published at Leipzig a German translation of Etteilla's Cours théorique et pratique du livre de Thot, with copper-engraved ...

Somehow I see a contradiction. Baumgärtner, the publisher in Leipzig, started his business in 1792 and the production of the German cards is given to 1793 (that's also in DDD).
Or is there another German publisher in Leipzig before? 1783 ? Typo ?
Yes, that "1783" is surely an error, most likely a misprint for 1793. The book as published in French has "1790" on its first page. Inside, it refers on p. 33 to a book it says was published in 1789, on p. 34 to a book published in 1784, and on p. 66 to a document of the "Interpretes" of January 1788. See https://archive.org/details/1790coursth ... e/mode/2up. In DDD's Wicked Pack, the Interpretes are given to 1788, but without a month. This reference in the Cours is the first I have seen indicating that the Interpretes already existed in January. Wicked Pack gives the year of publication for the Cours as 1790.

Merode .... Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

57
IN WORK

Merode: Old nobility, starting between Cologne and Aachen, later active in the region around Bruxelles.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merode_(Adelsgeschlecht)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Merode

Image
Mme. de Mérode (1743-1794), mentioned by the Prince of Ligne in the context of Etteilla
= Marie Catherine Josèphe (de Rubempré d'Everbergh de Mérode-Monfort) de MÉRODE
https://gw.geneanet.org/jeadeg60yahoo?l ... =de+merode

A part of the German wikipedia article to the Merode family
Niederländische und belgische Adelsverleihungen
1591 heiratete Freiherr Philipp von Merode die Burggräfin Anna von Montfort-Calvo a.d.H. Houffalize. Hierdurch wurde 1625 ihr Sohn Philipp infolge der Erbschaft zum Burggrafen von Montfort-Calvo erhoben. Am 21. Mai 1626 wurde Philipp der spanisch-niederländische Titel Marquis de Westerloo mit Primogenitur verliehen.
Die Heirat des Grafen Philipp Franz von Merode (1696–1742) im Jahre 1704 mit Brigitte Louise Princesse de Rubempré führte zu einer weiteren Titelübernahme. Ihre Enkelin Maria Catharina (1743–1794) hatte neben dem Adelstitel ihrer Großmutter auch den Titel ihres Großvaters geerbt und führte die erblichen Adelstitel Gräfin von Merode und Princesse de Rubempré et d’Everberghe, den sie wiederum an ihren Ehegatten den Grafen Philipp Maximilian Werner von Merode weitergab. Dessen Vater war Graf Jean-Philippe-Eugène de Merode-Westerloo (1674–1732), 5. Marquis de Westerloo - Prinz von Merode.
automatic translation
Dutch and Belgian nobility awards
In 1591 Baron Philipp von Merode married the Countess Anna von Montfort-Calvo a.d.H. Houffalize. As a result, in 1625 her son Philip was raised to the burgrave of Montfort-Calvo as a result of the inheritance. On May 21, 1626, Philip was awarded the Spanish-Dutch title Marquis de Westerloo with primogeniture.
The marriage of Count Philipp Franz von Merode (1696–1742) to Brigitte Louise Princesse de Rubempré in 1704 led to another assumption of the title. Her granddaughter Maria Catharina (1743-1794) had inherited her grandfather's title as well as her grandmother's title and bore the hereditary titles Countess von Merode and Princesse de Rubempré et d'Everberghe, which she in turn passed on to her husband, Count Philipp Maximilian Werner von Merode passed on. His father was Count Jean-Philippe-Eugène de Merode-Westerloo (1674-1732), 5th Marquis de Westerloo - Prince of Merode.
Mme. de Mérode (= Marie Catherine) played an important role in the complex Merode family history.
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/merode.html

Grandfather of Marie Catherine: Philipp Franz von Merode und Montfort (1669-1742)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_F ... d_Montfort
... he had in second marriage (?) 2 children
Maximilian Leopold Ghislain (* 19. April 1710; † 22. Februar 1773) ⚭ 1742 Catherine Olremans
Sabine Marie Sophie (* 28. Juni 1714; † 23. März 1772) ⚭ 1736 Altgraf und Graf August Eugen Bernhard zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck (* 1706; † 1767)

Maximilian Leopold Ghislain became the father of Marie Catherine. Sabina Marie Sophie was an aunt, who didn't get children herself.

The marriage of Maximilian Leopold Ghislain with Catherina Olremans started as a drama, as described by ....
Geschichte der Familie Merode, Bände 1-2
Johann Wilhelm Graf von Mirbach-Harff
H. Dominicus, 1877
https://books.google.de/books?id=2LI7AA ... n"&f=false

... and also by the family dates:
1742, March 24 ... Death of Philipp Franz of Merod, grandfather of Marie Catherine
1742, June 24 ... Wedding
Maximilian Leopold Ghislain (*1710), in 1742 about 32 years old
Catherina Olremans, (*1701), in 1742 about 41 years old and 9 years older than her husband and she didn't belong to the nobility class
1743 April 10. Birth of Marie Catherine

This marriage cause of love was a scandal and Maximilian lost all his titles. He got them back 10 years later.
Image
Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

60
Huck wrote: 12 Feb 2023, 02:34 With memoirs you mean the Ligne text ? Or something else? For instance contradictions in the life dates?
De Ligne's memoirs, yes. The various editions differ slightly.

Incidentally, his daughter-in-law also recounts a number of Etteilla anecdotes, although these are much more far-fetched and fanciful than those related by the prince.